Misc Mix of weak drugs and mental illness

[dimlyFourOwls]

Kratom, nicotine, and schizoaffective disorder

Hi everyone. Soooo, it's been a bit of a mess. I was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder about six years ago, in grad school, after I messed up the lab where I worked during a psychotic episode in the middle of the night.

Fast forward to today: I'm much recovered, my psychosis is much better (trace remnants, negative energy and threatening energy from people mostly), some social anxiety, general anxiety/restlessness. My most recent psychiatrist I've been seeing for about a year now. I was on olanzapine while taking heavy doses of kratom for a while with my previous psychiatrist whom I didn't tell about the kratom. I was self-medicating for the anxiety with the kratom but I had to keep increasing the dose to keep up with the anxiety, and eventually it stopped working but I kept on it. Up to 10 or 20 teaspoons of ground leaf a day.

Fast forward again: I've told my current psychiatrist I'm off of kratom, but I suffered severe withdrawal symptoms (waking nightmares, very vivid and with palpable pain and horror) during the process, so my family agreed I should taper instead of quitting cold turkey. (Side note: I'm not sure how prevalent the notion that tapering can be beneficial is for the medical complex. Anyway...). Now I am on two teaspoons a day, my psychosis is mostly gone, and my main remaining symptom is a short attention span and an ever-present restlessness. I have to get up from the computer every ten minutes to go outside and pace back and forth while vaping. Oh yeah, I also vape nonstop throughout the day. 3 mg/mL, 70/30 vg/pg. I'm able to do this because I'm on a 4-month medical leave of absence from work to treat my schizoaffective disorder and my house has windows which are capable of opening.

My psychiatrist is convinced it is the kratom that caused all my mental symptoms, after reading the first smear campaign google hit for kratom side effects and that's about it. He's done some more research in the background but I still don't know his sources. I don't hear people having problems with kratom but I've heard the normal dose is no more than three teaspoons ground leaf a day. I started using kratom around the same time I started grad school. My paranoia and psychosis peaked about two to three years into grad school.

I started smoking about four years ago in a mental ward in England (long story), went back home to the U.S., continued smoking for two years, then switched to vaping which I now continue to do.

My questions right now are: Can high doses of kratom cause psychosis? and; Can a constant low dose of kratom mixed with antipsychotics and nicotine cause restlessness/anxiety/short attention span?

I am currently on clonazepam (antianxiety, 0.75 mg/day), risperidone (antipsychotic, 5 mg/day), and buspirone (antianxiety, 30 mg/day). With my previous psychiatrist whom I did not tell about the kratom addiction, I was on a very high dose of and not responding to olanzapine. I switched my antipsychotic when I switched to my current psychiatrist, who I told about my kratom addiction which fueled his belief it caused my symptoms and who now believes I am clean (thought in reality I am at a low dose and continuing to slowly taper off).

Thank you for any information or opinions you have, and I can answer additional questions to clarify anything that was confusing in my post.

dfo

 

[Barbalos]

I have some experience with these things, as I am also schizoaffective (bipolar type).

I also vape constantly and it has little effect once a tolerance has been established, but I like the motions as well as the limited effect of nicotine.

Kratom by itself will not give me psychotic symptoms if I am in good mental health, at any dose I have tried (I have tried similar to what you were doing at your height of kratom use). However, if I am in bad condition (overly worried, abusing drugs, not getting enough sleep, etc.), or for any reason having some psychosis already, kratom will exacerbate it. At high doses, severely so. I was having a period of psychosis a while ago, and I ended up throwing out ~30g of Red Bali after a 2g dose caused very bothersome symptoms.

The feelings of restlessness and short attention span are likely caused by the antipsychotic; at least, that was the case for me. I suffered those feelings for over a decade due to antipsychotics that, in the end, were never able to stop me hearing voices whenever I was in bad mental condition. But they did prevent me from going manic, which is an extreme danger, so they are not entirely without value. I am no longer on that type of medication and those feelings have gone away, though I face different struggles nonetheless.

Please keep in mind this is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

Thank you for the reply, Barbalos.

 

[powerpunk5000]

Wow ok. Kratom is a newer drug not ment studies have been conducted in the usa. And I'm sure your doctor will know very little about it. But with the meds your taking any kind of "supplement" or drug can cause you're current meds to not be absorbed or properly effective and I'm sure if you do enough research on what pathway kratom works on you'll see meds you take working on the same pathway. The benzo gaba-a and the buspar is a 5-htpa antagonist which I believe is the precursor to gaba? Btw how long have you been on buspar was put on it a month ago 10mg 2x a day. Trying to see if its worth sticking to dont feel to much or a difference, also for about hakf hour or so after i take it i get super weak tired and sweaty did you experience that and did it ever go away? Seems like not many ppl take buspar

 

[powerpunk5000]

Looks like kratom works like herion from the little research i just saw. Causing it to be a stimulant and your buspar and benzo are both depressant. Which easily can make them not work as affective

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

Wow ok. Kratom is a newer drug not ment studies have been conducted in the usa. And I'm sure your doctor will know very little about it. But with the meds your taking any kind of "supplement" or drug can cause you're current meds to not be absorbed or properly effective and I'm sure if you do enough research on what pathway kratom works on you'll see meds you take working on the same pathway. The benzo gaba-a and the buspar is a 5-htpa antagonist which I believe is the precursor to gaba? Btw how long have you been on buspar was put on it a month ago 10mg 2x a day. Trying to see if its worth sticking to dont feel to much or a difference, also for about hakf hour or so after i take it i get super weak tired and sweaty did you experience that and did it ever go away? Seems like not many ppl take buspar

I can't remember how long I've been on buspar. At least a few years. My psychiatrist says it is a very benign medication so I am surprised you are having side effects from after taking it. But it also I have noticed never did much or at all for me, so my hypothesis is that it works for some people and doesn't for others. If you find yourself on it for a while (few months) and still don't notice any benefits, I would say it likely won't work at all. But definitely consult your doctor about this.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

Looks like kratom works like herion from the little research i just saw. Causing it to be a stimulant and your buspar and benzo are both depressant. Which easily can make them not work as affective

Okay, well the good news is I am continuing to slowly taper off of it (to avoid the horrible withdrawal symptoms I went through stopping suddenly at first), and am now down to two flat teaspoons a day.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

To add to the mix, I am now curious about nicotine. I vape 3 mg/mL electronic cigarette juice all day nonstop throat-to-lung, so I am wondering if that may be contributing to my restlessness. Nicotine is a stimulant, but I find it relaxing and I feel it would be worse without it. That could just be the addict talking though. I've heard lots of people with mental illness correlate with increased likelihood of smoking, but I've never seen a study that points the causation one way or the other (whether mental illness causes people to seek relief from nicotine, or whether nicotine contributes to mental illness). Lots of people chain smoke and don't get mental illness though, so I'd say it's probably the former.

But back to the (new) topic (though feel free to continue discussion of any aforementioned points in thread), if constant nicotine intake is causing me restlessness or contributing, would the best way to come off be to slowly taper in mixing 0 mg/mL nicotine to my juice? That is my plan as soon as I am off kratom 100% and not adjusting my psych meds, in order to do one thing at a time to have some sense of what is going on and what is causing what. Let me know your opinion on this.

Update: My psychiatrist says that now that I am "off" kratom (as far as he knows), I may be more sensitive to the risperdal (antipsychotic), and that may be causing restlessness. He and I agree it is not akathisia though, as I am able to sit down long enough to type this reply and have meals and go to the gym. So he says once I experience no psychotic symptoms for a few weeks, we will begin reducing my risperdal dosage and see if my restlessness improves. Wish me luck~!

 

[Jabberwocky]

The acute withdrawal from daily long term high dose kratom habits can trigger psychosis, but that seems to be in populations already vulnerable to the condition.

If you can get it, try looking into gabapentin or baclofen. That seems to really help with these sort of symptoms (and don't have the risks/side effects that come with atypical antipsychotics). They'd also make it relatively easy to come off kratom, and would significantly lower any attendant risk of psychosis during the transition.

Try replacing the e-juice with nicotine gum or patches. The effects of nicotine are much "cleaner" than pharmaceutical grade product than e-juice vaping in my experience.

The all day vaping is definitely contributing to the problems here though. Maybe try focusing on more activities where vaping isn't an option (like spending time inside the public library, getting exercise by going on a long walk or hike where you don't bring the vape, etc).

 

[rainyday107]

Bipolar 1 with occasional psychotic features here (not the same as schizoaffective, but my psychiatrist told me my treatment is the same)..

I have never taken Kratom, but I have chronic pain and take oxycodone and Carispodal with no problems. I do take them as prescribed.

Alcohol and stress are the true destabilizing things for me. I can definitely see how grad school and the pressure could make psychosis or a mood episode crop up.

I smoked cigarettes for years and quit with the nicotine patches and my partner doesn’t smoke...that helps a lot.

I doubt Kratom solely causes your psychosis. Do you have triggers for psychotic episodes ... and prior to Kratom?

I have read Baclofen can be hard to get off of....I believe I read it on www.drugs.com....but I have no personal experience. I have heard good things about GABA and I took it when recovering from my alcoholism.

There definitely is a correlation between nicotine and schizophrenia (“Surving Schizophrenia” by Fuller, M.D.). Not sure about bipolar disorder or schizoaffective...I see it all as a conitinium, myself. Nicotine calmed me as well and it’s hypothsized it helps with concentration. I’m still glad I quit, however.

My atypical antipsychotic is Geodon and we were able to lower my dose, that’s good you may be able to lower Risperdal.

Akathesia blows, I’m glad you don’t have it! Keep an eye on it....Cogentin blew it out of the water when I took Abilify. I typically am reluctant to add a med...but it was worth it for me.

Are you on a mood stabilizer? I have responded well to Lamictal.

It sure if we can post links, it PM me if you want a recommendation to an active support forum.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

The acute withdrawal from daily long term high dose kratom habits can trigger psychosis, but that seems to be in populations already vulnerable to the condition.

If you can get it, try looking into gabapentin or baclofen. That seems to really help with these sort of symptoms (and don't have the risks/side effects that come with atypical antipsychotics). They'd also make it relatively easy to come off kratom, and would significantly lower any attendant risk of psychosis during the transition.

Try replacing the e-juice with nicotine gum or patches. The effects of nicotine are much "cleaner" than pharmaceutical grade product than e-juice vaping in my experience.

The all day vaping is definitely contributing to the problems here though. Maybe try focusing on more activities where vaping isn't an option (like spending time inside the public library, getting exercise by going on a long walk or hike where you don't bring the vape, etc).

Thanks for the reply, tothpastedog. I am curious where you know these things from? Do you have any sources or is it personal/social experience? You're suggesting muscle relaxants/pain relief for anxiety so I'm a bit curious.

I plan on weaning off vaping once my other variables (medications and kratom usage) are dealt with and stabilize.

 

[MrRoot]

Gabapentin and Lyrica (pregabalin) are prescribed off label for anxiety and especially GAD and for example for PTSD.

They work really well for that but if you happen to abuse those you'll have hell of a rebound anxiety when discontinuing the use.

Also vaping hits your receptors harder and faster than nicotine patches for example as with vaping you'll get high and low amounts of nicotine depending the use which makes the addiction worse than with much more constant supply of nicotine as goes for patches and gum. Chewing tobacco is also much "cleaner" way to dose than vaping or smoking but it has it harms too.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

Gabapentin and Lyrica (pregabalin) are prescribed off label for anxiety and especially GAD and for example for PTSD.

They work really well for that but if you happen to abuse those you'll have hell of a rebound anxiety when discontinuing the use.

Also vaping hits your receptors harder and faster than nicotine patches for example as with vaping you'll get high and low amounts of nicotine depending the use which makes the addiction worse than with much more constant supply of nicotine as goes for patches and gum. Chewing tobacco is also much "cleaner" way to dose than vaping or smoking but it has it harms too.

Thanks for the input, MrRoot.