Meth and Amp causes loss of magic for MDMA

[sheepie]

Not officially, this is something I came up with.

We know piracetam amplifies dopamine (and not serotonin). I also have read through experiences that piracetam restores magic. Therefor I think it is quite plausible that the "magic" is much more related to dopamine than serotonin. Also, MDAI, a highly serotonergic drug, does not seem to produce any magic (again through experiences I read), likely because there is not much dopamine activity. The magic is caused by dopamine.

Okay, seeing that no study has shown that MDMA causes any dopaminergic damage. And (I think) there are studies showing that amphetamines and methamphetamines cause dopaminergic damage, we can connect the dots and come the conclusion that it is more likely speed that causes the loss of magic, since they damage dopamine receptors and not MDMA.

Short-term loss of magic can be explained by down-regulation of dopamine. Long-term loss of magic can be explained by the use (or over-use) of speed and not MDMA.

I would like to see a user of pure ecstasy who doesn't use speed (or any drug that damages dopamine receptors for that matter) and who experienced long-term loss of magic. Anybody?

 

[rollinboobs]

i dont use speed. i mean iv used adderall and pills that have speed in them but nothing to an extent. and i havent lost the magic but i dont get as loved up as i used to and i also i dont have the great sensations like i used to get when rubbing something soft. i also havent even used ecstasy that that much. i went through my stage but no where near like some people.

but i agree with what your saying im sure speed does help you "lost the magic"

 

[AylaV]

Not officially, this is something I came up with.

We know piracetam amplifies dopamine (and not serotonin). I also have read through experiences that piracetam restores magic. Therefor I think it is quite plausible that the "magic" is much more related to dopamine than serotonin. Also, MDAI, a highly serotonergic drug, does not seem to produce any magic (again through experiences I read), likely because there is not much dopamine activity. The magic is caused by dopamine.

Okay, seeing that no study has shown that MDMA causes any dopaminergic damage. And (I think) there are studies showing that amphetamines and methamphetamines cause dopaminergic damage, we can connect the dots and come the conclusion that it is more likely speed that causes the loss of magic, since they damage dopamine receptors and not MDMA.

Short-term loss of magic can be explained by down-regulation of dopamine. Long-term loss of magic can be explained by the use (or over-use) of speed and not MDMA.

I would like to see a user of pure ecstasy who doesn't use speed (or any drug that damages dopamine receptors for that matter) and who experienced long-term loss of magic. Anybody?

I've suspected this for years. To add to your theory here, my gf hates MDMA -- it just doesn't work for her like everyone else. Why? Well, she used to be a tweaker (heavily abused meth). There's no way to prove this for certain, but I think it's even generally agreed that dopamine plays a huge part in the "magic" of MDMA =)

 

[Keaton]

It's true. In some respects. Ive looked into the interaction between methylphenidate and MDMA for the past few months. The research isn't too conclusive, but through my own experience, if I roll the same day or even the day after I take my concerta, I have a severly diminished roll as compared to if I skip taking it for a few days. I get the body high, but the empathy just ant there. So yes, I do believe that they kill the magic.

 

[PryingOpenMy3rdEye]

Not completely.
It depends on what you define as "magic"
Serotonin is responsible for the lovey dovey effect of E
Dopamine is reponsible for the euphoria and body high of E
One time I noticed when I was using 5-HTP than I was supposed before using E. I wouldn't get any body high or euphoria. A study I saw said long term usage of 5-HTP leads to a loss of dopamine. So I somewhat agree with what your saying.

 

[Bsiren]

Your theory is well thought out and likely valid, sheepie. I notice that when I use stimulants a lot during the week (ephedrine, drinking coffee) it diminishes some desired effects of MDMA. Obviously, not the same thing as speed, but actually related (though much milder) drugs.

 

[sheepie]

It's true. In some respects. Ive looked into the interaction between methylphenidate and MDMA for the past few months. The research isn't too conclusive, but through my own experience, if I roll the same day or even the day after I take my concerta, I have a severly diminished roll as compared to if I skip taking it for a few days. I get the body high, but the empathy just ant there. So yes, I do believe that they kill the magic.

Interesting... I take concerta also, although I've never rolled any time near it. I don't think concerta damages neurons like Amp or Meth. It seems to be more of a safer "Amp Lite" so to speak, but I don't know for sure.

I'm thinking this situation is more likely a down-regulation rather than a neuron damage.

I would like to see some studies on dopaminergic damage and Methylphenidate.

Not completely.
It depends on what you define as "magic"
Serotonin is responsible for the lovey dovey effect of E
Dopamine is reponsible for the euphoria and body high of E
One time I noticed when I was using 5-HTP than I was supposed before using E. I wouldn't get any body high or euphoria. A study I saw said long term usage of 5-HTP leads to a loss of dopamine. So I somewhat agree with what your saying.

I think there is a general consensus on what the Magic is. Not exactly something you can put in words, but basically, the experience feels unbelievably ... well, magical. As oppose to another fun drug experience. But I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion on it.

I've suspected this for years. To add to your theory here, my gf hates MDMA -- it just doesn't work for her like everyone else. Why? Well, she used to be a tweaker (heavily abused meth). There's no way to prove this for certain, but I think it's even generally agreed that dopamine plays a huge part in the "magic" of MDMA =)

Interesting. Maybe you should suggest piracetam for her?

Your theory is well thought out and likely valid, sheepie. I notice that when I use stimulants a lot during the week (ephedrine, drinking coffee) it diminishes some desired effects of MDMA. Obviously, not the same thing as speed, but actually related (though much milder) drugs.

Thanks! I think your case is another down-regulation case, seeing as it's probably not permanent. IE, abstain for a week or two and your magic will be normal, as oppose to a tweaker or speed addict who's dopamine neurons will be permanently damaged.

 

[Legerity]

I was actually gonna post that I was skeptical about the theory, but thinking back when I was doing a lot of speed I came to prefer it much more than MDMA. At that point I would sometimes to E instead but I used it for the speedy effect, which is mostly what I was getting at that point, rather than the warm loving feeling. So maybe my use of amphetamines did end up affecting the roll, I always had assumed it was just from rolling too often or taking two many pills at a time.

Luckily after a long break, my brain seems to be able to handle MDMA quite fine. I'm not sure it quite had the magic of the beginning, although I will have to see with subsequent experiments

 

[Juice.]

Not completely.
It depends on what you define as "magic"
Serotonin is responsible for the lovey dovey effect of E
Dopamine is reponsible for the euphoria and body high of E
One time I noticed when I was using 5-HTP than I was supposed before using E. I wouldn't get any body high or euphoria. A study I saw said long term usage of 5-HTP leads to a loss of dopamine. So I somewhat agree with what your saying.

Dopamine is not responsible for the body high, that is an old theory that has been largely disregarded. Methamphetamine releases dopamine at a much larger scale, and from the same dopamine receptors, and it does not cause a body high like MDMA or mephedrone. Serotonin is responsible for the body high, the change in perception, and the exaggeration of moods. Dopamine is responsible for the euphoria and the happiness.

I agree with the thread, I don't personally believe that serotonin is the "happy chemical" at all. The serotonergic system of the brain evolved after the primal dopaminergic system, it is therefore more complex and extremely misunderstood. Look at the SSRI class of antidepressants, they perform barely above placebo in clinical testing, and often cause the opposite of their desired effects, causing increased depression and suicidal thoughts. When I use MDMA in the days following an adderall binge, I will roll, I will feel the body high, but I am a lot less social, and a lot more depressed, anxious, and introspective.

 

[lyricabuddy]

I recently did some mdma 3 days after a good amount of meth on a Friday night when I could still feel the meth in my system (I have no meth tolerance), and all it did was essentially bring back my high, but it was a feeling somewhere in between the meth and the mdma to the point where I was believing that this "molly" was cut with meth, but I was assured it was pure. almost like the mdma re-activated the meth in my system and it felt more like a combo than the classical mdma high where you get those somewhat hallucinogenic & empathetic feelings. rather, I felt much more connected with reality than if I would have done the mdma on its own

 

[Black]

I agree with the thread, I don't personally believe that serotonin is the "happy chemical" at all.

but neither is dopamine. i don't know the specifics anymore, but i remember that there were studies, that showed dopamine to be responsible for motivation, energy and seeking out pleasurable things, rather than pleasure itself. i think there were also experiments where they stimulated the "reward center", which is mainly controlled by dopamine, in the brains of humans and while the subjects had a strong desire for continued stimulation, they reported feeling no pleasure from it...

all in all, we still have no idea how subjective pleasure works. maybe it's a complex mixture of activation of specific serotonergic neurons and/or dopaminergic neurons (or even ones that respond to endocannabinoids?) in specific locations or maybe it all comes back to endorphins in the end...