Opioids Main bulking agent v "I do 1 gram of fentanyl per day bro"

[LucidSDreamr]

As we all know…one gram of pure fentanyl would kill a blue whale.

But you hear of fent users always saying they do a gram or more per day of fentanyl

What is the bulking agent being added to fentanyl for ppl to be able to ingest this much material?

 

[sekio]

It's called tolerance, or also mithridatism.

As opioids are continuously and repeatedly used, it takes more of them to produce effects, both good and bad.
So over a period of time it is not unheard of to go from taking very small amounts of opioids (30mg oral codeine / 10mg oral morphine / 5mg oxycodone) which produce strong effects, over time the dose needed can grow to quite large quantities.
There is, generally speaking, no "top limit" of opioids, if you find that a certain dose is not effective, you can almost always increase the dose and have the effect return for a short while, until you have to repeat the process.
Where I live (Vancouver Canada) we are renowned for being an epicenter of the drug abuse problem. Street "down" can easily be up to 80% fentanyl and often also has some portion of carfentanil (which is more potent still, but is commonly seen because it has a much longer half life and therefore a longer "high" than plain fentanyl (which can last as short as 3-4h before needing to redose), There are local organizations that do regular testing and it's not uncommon to see >50% fentanyl or analogue. And some people do abuse more than a gram a day of such material, usually via either IV or smoking off of foil - and the vast majority do not actually drop dead.

The real problem is when they withdraw, or attempt to substitute with methadone. At such usage levels the math is out the window - nobody will give 4 grams methadone a day for instance. But treatment is, somehow, still possible...

Anyway, the most common inactive cut is pure caffeine, because it both is water soluble (for IV and snorting) as well as volatile with heat (when smoked), basically inactive, legal, and also cheap and easily available.

(Sources: I used to operate a GCMS as a favour to my opioid-using friends back in the day, and I read the reports of trusted testing organizations in my area.)

 

[LucidSDreamr]

It's called tolerance, or also mithridatism.

As opioids are continuously and repeatedly used, it takes more of them to produce effects, both good and bad.
So over a period of time it is not unheard of to go from taking very small amounts of opioids (30mg oral codeine / 10mg oral morphine / 5mg oxycodone) which produce strong effects, over time the dose needed can grow to quite large quantities.
There is, generally speaking, no "top limit" of opioids, if you find that a certain dose is not effective, you can almost always increase the dose and have the effect return for a short while, until you have to repeat the process.
Where I live (Vancouver Canada) we are renowned for being an epicenter of the drug abuse problem. Street "down" can easily be up to 80% fentanyl and often also has some portion of carfentanil (which is more potent still, but is commonly seen because it has a much longer half life and therefore a longer "high" than plain fentanyl (which can last as short as 3-4h before needing to redose), There are local organizations that do regular testing and it's not uncommon to see >50% fentanyl or analogue. And some people do abuse more than a gram a day of such material, usually via either IV or smoking off of foil - and the vast majority do not actually drop dead.

The real problem is when they withdraw, or attempt to substitute with methadone. At such usage levels the math is out the window - nobody will give 4 grams methadone a day for instance. But treatment is, somehow, still possible...

Anyway, the most common inactive cut is pure caffeine, because it both is water soluble (for IV and snorting) as well as volatile with heat (when smoked), basically inactive, legal, and also cheap and easily available.

(Sources: I used to operate a GCMS as a favour to my opioid-using friends back in the day, and I read the reports of trusted testing organizations in my area.)

Thanks.



.I’m very sorry to hear that caffeine is the bulking agent since I am allergic to caffeine. You know of any good reagent test for caffeine?

You know if the caffeine decomposes upon heating for vaporizing the fent? Is it caffeine HCl? I know caffeine can be vaped in pens inside a carrier but I don’t know if it’s salt or what. At least if it decomped then I would not be consuming caffeine if I vaped exclusively

I don’t want to ever have to try fentanyl again but we know how the drug war goes and ppl lose their meds because the doctor is threatened with prison time.

You know what those blue fake oxy 30s are pressed with as bulking agent?

 

[sekio]

I’m very sorry to hear that caffeine is the bulking agent since I am allergic to caffeine.

I'm sorry, I find that hard to believe. Can you elaborate on your experiences with caffeine?
Do you mean actually, literally, textbook allergic as in, immune mediated response, throat rapidly swells, face becomes puffy, redness/swelling/irritation, massive gastric irritation, rashes/hives on skin - treated with epinephrine/adrenaline IM and e.g. diphenhydramiine (Benadryl) - and testable by doctors? It is very unlikely, but it has happened before. If this is the case you have my sympathies.

Or, more likely, are you 'caffeine intolerant'? This could range from: you have had at least one bad experience with it in the past and now the experience gives strongly negative associations, all the way to a true hypersensitivity where doses far below normal cause excessive stimulation, hypertension etc, in a repeatable fashion?
8 oz cola: 22mg
z green tea: 20-30mg
z black tea: 40-80mg
z brewed coffee: 90-170mg
z instant coffee: approx.60mg
One RedBull^TM or comparable: 80mg
One Monster^TM or comparable: 160-200mg
One caffeine pill: generally either 100mg or 200mg.

For most people, doses of 50-100mg is pleasantly tolerable. Doses up to 200mg may cause jitters and anxiety in infrequent users but many users will find it more intense yet still also enjoyable. 200mg is the maximum permissible amount per single serving i.e. per can of energy drink and also the recommended 24h consumption limit in several places, maybe because past this dose effects become rapidly more and more unpleasant (but generally is still safe) until around 1000mg or more it becomes medically dangerous (causes heart arrythmias) as well as universally recognized as Not Fun. As a bonus, high caffeine doses apparently cause the smell of rotting meat.

ANYWAY.

You know if the caffeine decomposes upon heating for vaporizing the fent? Is it caffeine HCl?

Caffeine is quite stable to heat and will vaporize along with any alkaloid. It was fotmerly a common cut for heroin too, back when it was actually heroin.
It can form some salts but I don't think they are very stable or common (because caffeine is a very weak base), so it is almost always seen as a pure compound.

You know what those blue fake oxy 30s are pressed with as bulking agent?

Nope. But likely not caffeine (it's not common to use as a pill filler).
The 5 mg ROXICODONE® tablet contains inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose and stearic acid. The 15 mg and 30 mg tablets contain the following inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose; sodium starch glycolate; corn starch; lactose; stearic acid; D&C Yellow No. 10 (15 mg tablet); and FD&C Blue No. 2 (15 mg and 30 mg tablets).
And the infamous Mallinckrodt "M Box 30s" originally were:
The tablets contain the following inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose, lactose monohydrate, stearic acid, D&C Red No. 27 Aluminum Lake (10 mg tablet), D&C Yellow No. 10 (15 mg tablet), Black Lake Blend (FD&C Yellow No. 6 Lake, FD&C Red No. 40 Lake, FD&C Blue No. 2) (20 mg tablet), and FD&C Blue No. 2 (15 mg and 30 mg tablets).

None of those ingredients are hard to get or expensive so the inert ingredients may be very similar to the "real" pills and just use a (hopefully) measured amount of fentanyl instead of oxycodone... It could even be faked by making pills 100% lactose as filler and simply add a blue dye coating.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I'm sorry, I find that hard to believe. Can you elaborate on your experiences with caffeine?
Do you mean actually, literally, textbook allergic as in, immune mediated response, throat rapidly swells, face becomes puffy, redness/swelling/irritation, massive gastric irritation, rashes/hives on skin - treated with epinephrine/adrenaline IM and e.g. diphenhydramiine (Benadryl) - and testable by doctors? It is very unlikely, but it has happened before. If this is the case you have my sympathies.

Or, more likely, are you 'caffeine intolerant'? This could range from: you have had at least one bad experience with it in the past and now the experience gives strongly negative associations, all the way to a true hypersensitivity where doses far below normal cause excessive stimulation, hypertension etc, in a repeatable fashion?
8 oz cola: 22mg
z green tea: 20-30mg
z black tea: 40-80mg
z brewed coffee: 90-170mg
z instant coffee: approx.60mg
One RedBull^TM or comparable: 80mg
One Monster^TM or comparable: 160-200mg
One caffeine pill: generally either 100mg or 200mg.

For most people, doses of 50-100mg is pleasantly tolerable. Doses up to 200mg may cause jitters and anxiety in infrequent users but many users will find it more intense yet still also enjoyable. 200mg is the maximum permissible amount per single serving i.e. per can of energy drink and also the recommended 24h consumption limit in several places, maybe because past this dose effects become rapidly more and more unpleasant (but generally is still safe) until around 1000mg or more it becomes medically dangerous (causes heart arrythmias) as well as universally recognized as Not Fun. As a bonus, high caffeine doses apparently cause the smell of rotting meat.

ANYWAY.


Caffeine is quite stable to heat and will vaporize along with any alkaloid. It was fotmerly a common cut for heroin too, back when it was actually heroin.
It can form some salts but I don't think they are very stable or common (because caffeine is a very weak base), so it is almost always seen as a pure compound.


Nope. But likely not caffeine (it's not common to use as a pill filler).
The 5 mg ROXICODONE® tablet contains inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose and stearic acid. The 15 mg and 30 mg tablets contain the following inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose; sodium starch glycolate; corn starch; lactose; stearic acid; D&C Yellow No. 10 (15 mg tablet); and FD&C Blue No. 2 (15 mg and 30 mg tablets).
And the infamous Mallinckrodt "M Box 30s" originally were:
The tablets contain the following inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose, lactose monohydrate, stearic acid, D&C Red No. 27 Aluminum Lake (10 mg tablet), D&C Yellow No. 10 (15 mg tablet), Black Lake Blend (FD&C Yellow No. 6 Lake, FD&C Red No. 40 Lake, FD&C Blue No. 2) (20 mg tablet), and FD&C Blue No. 2 (15 mg and 30 mg tablets).

None of those ingredients are hard to get or expensive so the inert ingredients may be very similar to the "real" pills and just use a (hopefully) measured amount of fentanyl instead of oxycodone... It could even be faked by making pills 100% lactose as filler and simply add a blue dye coating.

I’m not legit allergic to caffeine I have bladder damage from ketamine abuse and caffeine or any stimulant (and tons of different types of foods) can irritate it and cause the pain to flare. Caffeine is one of the main things they tell ppl with bladder cystitis to avoid.

I haven’t tested caffeine for about 5 or 6 years …I was way worse off back then and I couldn’t handle tea or coffee or a soda with caffeine. Maybe I can tolerate it now but I’m just so scared to try and cause a pain flare.

I’m just so used to saying I’m allergic to everything in real life because explaining the above reason isn’t something I’d tell a waiter at a restaurant when I don’t want tomato sauce on my food. So I’ve just gotten in the habit of saying I’m allergic to XYZ

Man I has some good times with the real M 30s back in the day. They just dissolved up so cleanly and felt 1.5x stronger than the other generics. And they were rare where I was so it was such a special treat when they came around

I really liked the ones that just has a cursive V on them and gave this beautiful blue color in the rig like Bahamian ocean then watching red mix with it in the syringe as you drew back was so beautiful

When red meets blue I used to refer to it as.

 

[stom10]

None of those ingredients are hard to get or expensive so the inert ingredients may be very similar to the "real" pills and just use a (hopefully) measured amount of fentanyl instead of oxycodone...

Worth noting that the fake fent M30s are often made to "smoke nicely" in a way that the actual prescription oxycodone never really did. And that users report a lot of variation between which batches do smoke nicely, what color residue they leave, how much residue, etc. It's possible that you could get all that variation just by varying ratios of the actual fillers/binders, but I'd lean more towards it indicating a pretty wide variety of agents being used based on whatever's on hand. Some of the bigger syndicates probably do have a stable preferred recipe though.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I'm sorry, I find that hard to believe. Can you elaborate on your experiences with caffeine?
Do you mean actually, literally, textbook allergic as in, immune mediated response, throat rapidly swells, face becomes puffy, redness/swelling/irritation, massive gastric irritation, rashes/hives on skin - treated with epinephrine/adrenaline IM and e.g. diphenhydramiine (Benadryl) - and testable by doctors? It is very unlikely, but it has happened before. If this is the case you have my sympathies.

Or, more likely, are you 'caffeine intolerant'? This could range from: you have had at least one bad experience with it in the past and now the experience gives strongly negative associations, all the way to a true hypersensitivity where doses far below normal cause excessive stimulation, hypertension etc, in a repeatable fashion?
8 oz cola: 22mg
z green tea: 20-30mg
z black tea: 40-80mg
z brewed coffee: 90-170mg
z instant coffee: approx.60mg
One RedBull^TM or comparable: 80mg
One Monster^TM or comparable: 160-200mg
One caffeine pill: generally either 100mg or 200mg.

For most people, doses of 50-100mg is pleasantly tolerable. Doses up to 200mg may cause jitters and anxiety in infrequent users but many users will find it more intense yet still also enjoyable. 200mg is the maximum permissible amount per single serving i.e. per can of energy drink and also the recommended 24h consumption limit in several places, maybe because past this dose effects become rapidly more and more unpleasant (but generally is still safe) until around 1000mg or more it becomes medically dangerous (causes heart arrythmias) as well as universally recognized as Not Fun. As a bonus, high caffeine doses apparently cause the smell of rotting meat.

ANYWAY.


Caffeine is quite stable to heat and will vaporize along with any alkaloid. It was fotmerly a common cut for heroin too, back when it was actually heroin.
It can form some salts but I don't think they are very stable or common (because caffeine is a very weak base), so it is almost always seen as a pure compound.


Nope. But likely not caffeine (it's not common to use as a pill filler).
The 5 mg ROXICODONE® tablet contains inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose and stearic acid. The 15 mg and 30 mg tablets contain the following inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose; sodium starch glycolate; corn starch; lactose; stearic acid; D&C Yellow No. 10 (15 mg tablet); and FD&C Blue No. 2 (15 mg and 30 mg tablets).
And the infamous Mallinckrodt "M Box 30s" originally were:
The tablets contain the following inactive ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose, lactose monohydrate, stearic acid, D&C Red No. 27 Aluminum Lake (10 mg tablet), D&C Yellow No. 10 (15 mg tablet), Black Lake Blend (FD&C Yellow No. 6 Lake, FD&C Red No. 40 Lake, FD&C Blue No. 2) (20 mg tablet), and FD&C Blue No. 2 (15 mg and 30 mg tablets).

None of those ingredients are hard to get or expensive so the inert ingredients may be very similar to the "real" pills and just use a (hopefully) measured amount of fentanyl instead of oxycodone... It could even be faked by making pills 100% lactose as filler and simply add a blue dye coating.

Worth noting that the fake fent M30s are often made to "smoke nicely" in a way that the actual prescription oxycodone never really did. And that users report a lot of variation between which batches do smoke nicely, what color residue they leave, how much residue, etc. It's possible that you could get all that variation just by varying ratios of the actual fillers/binders, but I'd lean more towards it indicating a pretty wide variety of agents being used based on whatever's on hand. Some of the bigger syndicates probably do have a stable preferred recipe though.

Sekio why do you not think caffeine is used to bind the fake blues? And you think legit binding agents are more likely?

Is caffeine not a good binder where it compresses and makes the pill hard the way they are…unlike powdered caffeine fent?

I figure it should be pretty easy to test these for caffeine with a reagent test….or any analytical labs you know of to check databases where these pills have been analyzed?

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Caffeine is more expensive than mentioned binders and at production levels such as with fake blues it can be significant sum of money.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Tho on the other hand caffeine might be considered ingredient not just a binder and added as ingredient it makes sense. Depending on dose and ROA it might simply act as in meds with paracetamol or codeine (somewhat adds to effects, to speed of come up or something like that) or it could slightly lessen side-effects from high doses of opiods.

 

[sekio]

Maybe I can tolerate it now but I’m just so scared to try and cause a pain flare.

I would feel comfortable recommending a trial of a small glass of green tea, one tea bag, brewed in 250mL/8 oz water (that was literally just at a boil), for as close to 3 minutes as possible (watch the clock). This should produce a drink with around 20mg caffeine, and you can drink half of it and watch for any symptoms, which should be mild if any.

This study gives the rather unhelpful information that 4.5mg/kg caffeine is not good. For a 60kg person that is 270mg caffeine. Uh, pretty much everyone would be busting for a piss after that much...

This slightly more helpful study does seem to show a dose-response relationship. They found drinking up to 1 cola-type beverage a day has seemingly no effect (odds ratio for lower urinary symptoms of 1.01, meaning they were 1.01 times as likely to experience some negative effect as a control without caffeine), more than 1 had a small effect (OR 1.12), up to 1 diet cola (which have more caffeine in general) had a very small effect (OR 1.07) and more than 1 a small effect as well (OR 1.18). They didn't seperate tea by black/green, but both up to 1 cup and more than 1 cup had similar moderate effects (OR 1.31 and 1.34). Coffee was the worst, 1 to 2 cups had OR 1.41, more than 2 cups, OR 2.09.
Curiously they found citrus juice had a protective effect, 0.4-1 z serving a day made symptoms 2/3 as likely (OR 0.67) and more than 1 serving made them 1/2 as likely (OR 0.50).
So, if you do caffeine, keep doses as small and infrequent as you can, drink some orange juice alongside it.

Sekio why do you not think caffeine is used to bind the fake blues? And you think legit binding agents are more likely?

It's possible, I've just not personally seen it. It would make sense if the pills are completely volatile and leave little or no residue though, as the vast majority of pill fillers will burn, char, or just melt instead of evaporate/sublime, but only caffeine is readily available, will "smoke" cleanly without residue, and is also water soluble if heated. It is a traditional cut for heroin for this reason.

I can't actually say what binding agents some clandestine manufacturer would use. It would depend on desired qualities, availability, the local customs, the "recipe" the "manufacturer" uses, etc.
For instance there are 8mg hydromorphone hydrochloride tablets that are made with nothing but lactose as filler, which leads them to being totally soluble with heat, leading to safer IV and nasal use.

I figure it should be pretty easy to test these for caffeine with a reagent test….or any analytical labs you know of to check databases where these pills have been analyzed?

I believe it turns brown with Mandelin reagent, and can be separated using TLC and stained with it to verify, if you are willing to go that far.
The problem with analyzing fake pills is, how can you tell which fakes they are exactly, if there are multiple types of fakes with the same imprint and different "recipes" you'd be left to guess which was yours...
Or, if the pills are mostly caffeine as filler, just measure the melting point, perhaps.

Caffeine is more expensive than mentioned binders and at production levels such as with fake blues it can be significant sum of money.

Millipore Sigma has 25kg for C$65 a kilo, another web supplier has 50kg for $32/kg.
And in larger amounts from more specific suppliers it is even cheaper.
This is not an insurmountable expense for a product that is sold, at street level, anywhere from $1 to $20 for a maybe 300mg pill. (At $32/kg, the cost works out to a whole 1 cent per pill.)