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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Low dose clonazepam withdrawal. Threshold dose of clonazepam?

Renald

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
222
I was using clonazepam for about 6 months in "as needed" fashion approx. 0,2-0,4 mg daily. Several months ago I decided to stop using it, but some mild to medium withdrawal symptoms occurred after several days of stopping. Previous to this I was long time clonazepam user used it for about 15 years in doses from 2 mg daily (first years of usage) to 0.5 mg daily (all the remaining time except first years). I remember I was quite difficult for me to withdraw the drug, the first panic attacks occurred during this time, but I was able to stop the drug during very slow water titration in about a year.
I want to add my daily dosage of a drug. Again, I am using it as needed, sometimes I am able to be with no drug a day or even two days, but after this mild to medium symptoms of anxiety, some derealization, dissociation and pre-panic state hit me. In this paper you see my daily dosages of clonazepam. I am stuck at about 0,15-0,25 mg/day average, with average dose in last days tending to be <0,15 mg/day.
According to Ashton benzo taper manual and converting clonazepam to diazepam as 1 mg to 20 mg, it seems I am using an equivalent dose of 3-5 mg of diazepam. Ashton recommends tapering low doses of diazepam reducing its dose by 1 mg every 1-2 weeks. According to this in worst case (2 weeks for 1 mg diazepam reduce) I need to taper about 0,05 mg of clonazepam in 2 weeks or 0,1 mg in a month.
Most users think 0,1-0,2 mg of a clonazepam is very small amount (maybe due to it is a fraction of a huge 2 mg tablet, almost impossible to be properly cut). My question is about the threshold dose of clonazepam, what is the smallest dose of a drug which produces any noticeable effect? Is <0,15 mg dose noticeable (for non tolerant user)?
Also, what do you think, maybe there is no need to withdraw using the drug on "as needed" basis, maybe just to take the same amount every day and reduce the dose after week-two? "As needed" method allows me to achieve lower daily dosages, but also decreases stability in plasma concentration. Every day usage will slightly increase the amount of drug, but the plasma concentration will be more stable.
Also I need to add I am on 60 mg a day duloxetine now for about a year.
Any advices?

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So you're having withdraw symptoms on less than .5mg/day? I can take that for two years straight and quit cold turkey and be fine. Actually have done that. Currently take .5mg a day though. Only for increased sleep, not because I necessarily need it.

Maybe I misread the thread.
 
Yes, I have withdrawal symptoms on <0.5 mg/day. Or, maybe, these symptoms are some kind of placebo, but how can they last so long? Even now, when I am on 0.15 mg/day, if I stop the drug abruptly, I will have mild to medium withdrawal symptoms in 2-3 days.
 
So you're having "mild to medium symptoms of anxiety, some derealization, dissociation and pre-panic state" after coming off that low of a dose?


Unless you have an astoundingly low tolerance I would say that it is in your head and you're creating the anxiety. If I stop taking benzos for a year even, and then take .5mg I feel little to nothing from it.
 
So you're having "mild to medium symptoms of anxiety, some derealization, dissociation and pre-panic state" after coming off that low of a dose?


Unless you have an astoundingly low tolerance I would say that it is in your head and you're creating the anxiety. If I stop taking benzos for a year even, and then take .5mg I feel little to nothing from it.

Yes, I have these symptoms. Sometimes I also think this could be only in my head, but I have no idea how to check this...
 
IMO completely placebo for being such a low dose
do you dwell on the situation?
i ask this because of the mighty fine documentation of your usage...don't exactly see that everyday

have you tried taking something else for anxiety instead of the klonopin..not saying you should but have you?
 
Everyone is so different. I can feel effects from 0.25mg (or possibly even 0.125mg?), although a normal dose for me would be 0.4mg. I tapered down to 0.125mg/day when I was coming off after taking clonazepam daily for a while. People who say they can't even feel any effects from 0.5mg, maybe they have a sort of permanent tolerance or are naturally not sensitive. I have anxiety and sleep issues and I can feel a partial relief of these things even from a tiny amount of clonazepam, BUT I have never taken huge amounts or been truly physically dependent on benzos. What makes you think your symptoms are not just regular anxiety, as opposed to "withdrawal symptoms"? My first impression is that you are over-thinking this and obsessing over it, to be blunt, (not that I haven't been there with other drugs). There is no perfect taper schedule that will leave you feeling fantastic. Are you trying to get off clonazepam completely?
 
^^^Deos, OP stated he previously used up to 2mg/day for 15 years, before getting off the stuff, and now coming back onto it at the lowed dose.

Many addictive substances can cause RAPID dependence & tachyphylaxis, if the subject had large tolerance to it in the past, even if it has been a decade since addiction, and now he only takes a fraction of original regimen.

In my extensive experience in this particular field (I don't mean to sound arrogant at all but in this case especially it really is true) clonazepam is one of THE MOST dependence-causing benzodiazepines. It is handed out like candy in the USA, because the doctors believe it has lower abuse potential than Xanax, Valium, etc.

And, they are right. BUT: despite not being a very recreational drug, it is insidiously habit forming. Have you seen a patient in Triazolam withdrawal? Perhaps not, but it is a true scare to behold. Clonazepam produces this same severity of symptoms, but with slower onset and longer duration.

Of course all benzo-diazepines are habit forming. But when you see a Valium patient waiting to pick up their Diazepam, or even Xanax, compared to the clonazepam(or Halcion/Triazolam) patients, there is really a marked difference. Quite a shame USA does not allow regular nitrazepam, because I believe it is the superior substance.
 
IMO completely placebo for being such a low dose
do you dwell on the situation?
i ask this because of the mighty fine documentation of your usage...don't exactly see that everyday

have you tried taking something else for anxiety instead of the klonopin..not saying you should but have you?

It is a possibility I overthink about a situation. By myself I am a doctor and have read lots of information regarding this issue, and in seems for me sometimes the plenty of information I have collected makes me feel bad. Surely, it can be not a withdrawal syndrome, but an anxiety, but I never had such an anxiety before except after the first attempt to taper clonazepam several years ago. I also remember the tapering continued a year from only 0.5 mg dose.
At this moment I am on duloxetine 60 mg almost a year, but it is difficult to say is it more effective as placebo for me. I have tried most benzos during my young years, and only clonazepam and alprazolam were effective. Maybe this is just due to impossibility to take an equivalent dose of most other benzos. Lets say I was using 2 mg of clonazepam, this is equivalent to 40 mg of diazepam or 8 tabs. I have never tried to use such an amount of diazepam at once, this amount looked for me extremely high.

At this moment I want to understand what is happening to me, is this anxiety associated with benzo withdrawal, or this is not a benzo withdrawal anxiety. My main goal is to feel good, it may be with no benzo or on some steady amount of it, I dont have negative thoughts about using the drug all my remaining life.

I have tried herbal anxiolytics such a kava-kava and valerian. It is possible to achieve with these substances an anxiolytic effect comparable to 0.125-0.25 mg of clonazepam?
 
IMO it isn't withdrawal per se but rebound anxiety and most likely that is chemically and psychologically based meaning your body is taking your normal anxiety and as it adjusts to the lack of the drug, increases on its own temporarily. Also focusing attention on it extensively builds into that. I have CT low doses from short term use and fast taper from extensive use and that is the primary effect it has shown for me.
 
So, maybe it would be wise instead of tapering to increase the dosage of drug temporarily?
 
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