• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Lofentanil produces superior analgesia compared to all fentanyls. Any explanation?

Anxious.Individual

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
89
So I was trying to find info on Lofentanil's half-life today, and stumbled across a PubMed abstract which showed that lofentanil produces superior analgesia in rats even when compared with carfentail. Is there any explanation why LF has these extra analgesic properties, and also does anyone have any info on it's half-life?

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2905988
 
So I was trying to find info on Lofentanil's half-life today, and stumbled across a PubMed abstract which showed that lofentanil produces superior analgesia in rats even when compared with carfentail. Is there any explanation why LF has these extra analgesic properties, and also does anyone have any info on it's half-life?

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2905988

Lofentanil is more potent than carfentanil? It's half life would be less than fentanyl's half life.
 
Expect to be smashed for a good many hours.

Found it for some reason, more pleasant than fentanyl itself, remifentanil, sufentanil and alfentanil. Kept me sane for most of the day, although was unable to make a thorough exploration as I've only had it once. I have to say, generally I don't care for fentanyls, I'm more of a dipropionylmorphine fan, or failing that, of morphine itself.

What I don't like about fentanyls in particular, tachyphylaxis aside and generally speaking relative lack of euphoric rush when injected intravenously plus the short action of most is the general relative lack of histamine release. Aside from it being quite painful if any goes in subcut by mistake, its one of the things that make me like morphine sulfate itself more than most opioids, H included. Dipropionylmorphine is, well, something fairly special for many reasons generally speaking, although to me, H (not street smack, but rather the product of acylating pharm. morphine by means either of acetic anhydride or of acetyl chloride and a dab of TETA to scrub formed HCl(g), cleanup and then I.V, the product in question being specifically and totally intended for the user, rather than a client paying for dope thats doubtless cut with caffeine and fuck only knows what other cuts that might be present.


I've never (unsurprisingly) tried carfentanil so cannot make comparison, but it seemed longer (lofentanil) than fent itself in action (rectally or I.V for fent, I.V only for lofentanil)
 
Lofentanil is more potent than carfentanil? It's half life would be less than fentanyl's half life.
Higher potency does not mean superior analgesia, and lofentanil is in fact considered to be a longer acting fent. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0024320582903319
Expect to be smashed for a good many hours.

Found it for some reason, more pleasant than fentanyl itself, remifentanil, sufentanil and alfentanil. Kept me sane for most of the day, although was unable to make a thorough exploration as I've only had it once. I have to say, generally I don't care for fentanyls, I'm more of a dipropionylmorphine fan, or failing that, of morphine itself.

What I don't like about fentanyls in particular, tachyphylaxis aside and generally speaking relative lack of euphoric rush when injected intravenously plus the short action of most is the general relative lack of histamine release. Aside from it being quite painful if any goes in subcut by mistake, its one of the things that make me like morphine sulfate itself more than most opioids, H included. Dipropionylmorphine is, well, something fairly special for many reasons generally speaking, although to me, H (not street smack, but rather the product of acylating pharm. morphine by means either of acetic anhydride or of acetyl chloride and a dab of TETA to scrub formed HCl(g), cleanup and then I.V, the product in question being specifically and totally intended for the user, rather than a client paying for dope thats doubtless cut with caffeine and fuck only knows what other cuts that might be present.


I've never (unsurprisingly) tried carfentanil so cannot make comparison, but it seemed longer (lofentanil) than fent itself in action (rectally or I.V for fent, I.V only for lofentanil)
Are you sure what you had was lofentanil? I have never heard of LF being used by humans. I have heard of carfentanil being used before, but not LF.
The most potent fent I have personally used was 3-methylfentanyl. And I found it to be very similar to butyrfentanyl, but longer lasting and more sedative.

I think you enjoy dipropanoylmorphine, because it is more lipophilic than H itself, and therefore creates a bigger rush, I have heard it's rush is almost on the same levels as desomorphine.
 
Last edited:
Higher potency does not mean superior analgesia, and lofentanil is in fact considered to be a longer acting fent. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0024320582903319
Are you sure what you had was lofentanil? I have never heard of LF being used by humans. I have heard of carfentanil being used before, but not LF.
The most potent fent I have personally used was 3-methylfentanyl. And I found it to be very similar to butyrfentanyl, but longer lasting and more sedative.

I think you enjoy dipropanoylmorphine, because it is more lipophilic than H itself, and therefore creates a bigger rush, I have heard it's rush is almost on the same levels as desomorphine.

In general this is the case. If not, how do you want your question to be answered then? All the fentanyl type derivatives are going to have very similar mechanisms of action, and differences in analgesia will mostly result from differences in affinities for the opioid receptors, as well as some pharmacokinetic differences maybe.

The paper is weird. It states that lofentanil "also possesses a very long duration of action which is due to its very long lasting occupancy of the opiate receptor". But this statement doesn't make sense, because even in cases like these where the ligand is very potent, there are still millions of times more ligands than there are opioid receptors, so a longer dissociation time doesn't affect clearance from the brain and subsequently body. The paper reports radioactive detection even 48 hours after i.v. administration of 3H-lofentanil, but we clearly know that its duration is not that long. So you need to be careful when correlating radioactivity with duration of action. I bet if they did the same experiment with fentanyl they'd get similar results.

I'd presume the ester moiety in lofentanil gets easily cleaved, and the resulting carboxylic acid is polar and easily excreted. There are no such metabolic handles like this in fentanyl.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I'm sure. Long acting but (to my perception at least) not the most euphoric opioid I've had by far.
projectprojectprojectprojectprojectprojectproject
And yes, I am a big fan of dipropionylmorphine, why? I cannot compare it with desomorphine, because I have never made desomorphine. Might do, some time, but I am in no particular hurry,
its more of a potential although quite alluring prospect for a future project. No need though to get started on the dangers of the fuck-ugly nightmarish slop known as krokodil. Because I have access to, of course, far, far better lab equipment than is likely to be in the possession of those impoverished russian junkies, poor fucking bastards that they are having gotten into such desperate situations as injecting horrible garbage like that. If I ever do go for desomorphine, I'd do it properly, and avoid the use of HI/RP, HI/phos acid or hypo reductions; thats pretty much akin to using a shotgun blast to light my morning cigarette. Its one thing to use a reduction method like that on PSE or ephedrine but another kettle of fish entirely to use it on as sensitive a molecule as chloro- bromo- or iodocodide.

As far as dipropionylmorphine goes, the stuff is potent as hell, nowhere near the fentanyls levels of potency but for a regular opioid its very strong stuff (actual yield not assessed, because only a single dose was prepared keeping any losses to a bare minimum was of critical importance; I HAD to more, so it had to be enough) . The other week when I was running very low on morphine sulfate, 200mg dipropionylmorphine (estimated, because that was the quantity of MS that went into the acylation) was prepared and shot. I have, unfortunately, quite a tolerance (I feel safe enough shooting up to 1.25-1.5g of morphine, with or without an additional couple of hundred mg of oxy(codone) although I wouldn't go too much higher than that, without any risk of throwing up. Itching and upon initial injection, prickling/stinging of the palms and soles of feet are both significant, as well as prickling of the face.)

That ~200mg or so kept me going for a good 10-11 hours or thereabouts, and even gave me a somewhat decent rush (this would have been a tiny dose of morphine itself for me and completely inadequate)

Going to be doing it again very soon, although at a much higher dose, nearly four times that of last week.

Been very tempted to give dibenzoylmorphine and the two positional isomers of propionylbenzoylmorphine (with the 3- and 6-position acyl substituents swapped around) a shot (see what I did there=D) although on these I can find little, nothing so far in fact,
 
In general this is the case. If not, how do you want your question to be answered then? All the fentanyl type derivatives are going to have very similar mechanisms of action, and differences in analgesia will mostly result from differences in affinities for the opioid receptors, as well as some pharmacokinetic differences maybe.

The paper is weird. It states that lofentanil "also possesses a very long duration of action which is due to its very long lasting occupancy of the opiate receptor". But this statement doesn't make sense, because even in cases like these where the ligand is very potent, there are still millions of times more ligands than there are opioid receptors, so a longer dissociation time doesn't affect clearance from the brain and subsequently body. The paper reports radioactive detection even 48 hours after i.v. administration of 3H-lofentanil, but we clearly know that its duration is not that long. So you need to be careful when correlating radioactivity with duration of action. I bet if they did the same experiment with fentanyl they'd get similar results.

I'd presume the ester moiety in lofentanil gets easily cleaved, and the resulting carboxylic acid is polar and easily excreted. There are no such metabolic handles like this in fentanyl.

If residence time is long enough then the duration of action is determined by the dissociation rate and not by PK factors. Think about the situation where a drug has a CNS half-life of 3 hours and a residence time of 12 hours. If the drug is administered IV at a dose that produces 50% receptor occupation, then 6 hours post-dose, brain levels will have declined by 75% but receptor occupation will not have changed appreciably. The duration of action is potentially much longer than the half-life. This is similar to what happens with lofentanil.
 
Last edited:
If residence time is long enough then the duration of action is determined by the dissociation rate and not by PK factors. Think about the situation where a drug has a CNS half-life of 3 hours and a residence time of 12 hours. If the drug is administered IV at a dose that produces 50% receptor occupation, then 6 hours post-dose, brain levels will have declined by 75% but receptor occupation will not have changed appreciably. The duration of action is potentially much longer than the half-life. This is similar to what happens with lofentanil.

I find it hard to believe drugs can be bound to receptors for 12 hours. If so, then surely there would be no need for an environment where the number of drug molecules massively outweighs the number of receptors, and the drug would have much less than attomolar affinity. Do you have sources that explain this in more depth?
 
I find it hard to believe drugs can be bound to receptors for 12 hours. If so, then surely there would be no need for an environment where the number of drug molecules massively outweighs the number of receptors, and the drug would have much less than attomolar affinity. Do you have sources that explain this in more depth?

EDIT: I decided to edit my answer because on further reflection I realized that your question indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how binding occurs. The fact that you think you need "an environment where the number of drug molecules massively outweighs the number of receptors" suggests that you think binding is sort of like osmotic pressure where high concentrations drive binding by pushing the ligand into the binding site. That is not how binding occurs. Association is driven by two processes: (1) concentration, which determines how likely the ligand and receptor are to collide; and (2) on-rate (Kon), which determines how likely it is that the binding process will complete each time they collide, as well as how long it takes to complete all the association steps (Kon is in units of concentration and time). If the association rate is very fast then you can potentially get high levels of occupation at very low ligand concentrations. Ditto if the off-rate is very slow. In other words, when there is more binding then unbinding, the equilibrium will shift from free receptor + free ligand --> receptor-ligand complex.

Do you have sources that explain this in more depth?

This is part of classical receptor pharmacology. Ligands associate and dissociate via a series of reversible steps that involve confrontational changes. So when a ligand binds, part of the receptor may be re-oriented in a manner that makes it difficult for the ligand to dissociate. In that case the residence time can be very long.


Take a look at Table II in the following paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/med.21307/pdf

Here are some examples of drugs with long residence times:

olodaterol (beta2 ligand) - dissociation 1/2-life = 17.8 hours
tiotropium (M3 ligand) - dissociation 1/2-life = 27 hours
desloratidine (H1 antagonist) - dissociation 1/2-life > 6 hours
lofentanil - dissociation 1/2-life = 4.3 hours
SCH527123 (CXCR2 ligand) - dissociation 1/2-life = 22 hours

Although not mentioned in the paper, LSD appears to have a residence time of at least 6 hours.
 
Last edited:
EDIT: I decided to edit my answer because on further reflection I realized that your question indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how binding occurs. The fact that you think you need "an environment where the number of drug molecules massively outweighs the number of receptors" suggests that you think binding is sort of like osmotic pressure where high concentrations drive binding by pushing the ligand into the binding site. That is not how binding occurs. Association is driven by two processes: (1) concentration, which determines how likely the ligand and receptor are to collide; and (2) on-rate, which determines how likely it is that the binding process will start each time they collide. If the association rate is very fast then you can potentially get high levels of occupation at very low ligand concentrations. Ditto if the off-rate is very long. In other words, when there is more binding then unbinding, the equilibrium will shift from free receptor + free ligand --> receptor-ligand complex.



This is part of classical receptor pharmacology. Ligands associate and disassociate via a series of reversible steps that involve confrontational changes. So when a ligand binds, part of the receptor may be re-oriented in a manner that makes it difficult for the ligand to disassociate. In that case the residence time can be very long.


Take a look at Table II in the following paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/med.21307/pdf

Here are some examples of drugs with long residence times:

olodaterol (beta2 ligand) - dissociation 1/2-life = 17.8 hours
tiotropium (M3 ligand) - dissociation 1/2-life = 27 hours
desloratidine (H1 antagonist) - dissociation 1/2-life > 6 hours
lofentanil - dissociation 1/2-life = 4.3 hours
SCH527123 (CXCR2 ligand) - dissociation 1/2-life = 22 hours

Although not mentioned in the paper, LSD appears to have a residence time of at least 6 hours.

Thanks
 
Higher potency does not mean superior analgesia.

Read the abstract again.

All five opiates produced analgesia with the relative order of potency being lofentanil greater than [....]

and the relative order of duration at comparative doses lofentanil greater than [...]

Lofentanyl (3-methylcarfentanyl) has superior analgesia because it's the most potent of the tested substances and has the longest duration. That's it.

Isn't it kinda obvious that the most potent opioid is also the most superior/best painkiller? It relieves pain at doses that the others could not, therefore it's the better analgesic. If other factors are introduced (human instead of rats, therapeutic index for example), the ranking might be different.
 
Last edited:
Are you certain? there ARE other binding sites vs classical MOR1,2,3;DOR1,2:KOR1,2 and ORL.

For example the possible epsilon receptor, the lambda binding site and the iota opioid receptor.
 
I find it hard to believe drugs can be bound to receptors for 12 hours. If so, then surely there would be no need for an environment where the number of drug molecules massively outweighs the number of receptors, and the drug would have much less than attomolar affinity. Do you have sources that explain this in more depth?

Just Look at 4FIBF - It has a duration of action of around 48 hours and a potency similar to that of Fentanyl.

And as far a Lofentanil is concerned, from what I understand, it has a duration of action of around 12 hours, and a potency of around 130x that of Fentanyl and 1.3x that of Carfentanil.
 
And no it certainly does not follow that the most potent by weight the opioid the better it is. It depends on the individual character of the opioid in question. A lot of people find fentanyl itself cold, clinical, empty and soulless. Fucking potent, yes but distinctly lacking in many respects. Its a potent analgesic alright, but in terms of recreational potential I am by no means unique in finding fentanyl pretty boring as far as opioids go.

As far as dipropionylmorphine and differences between H, morphine etc. in terms of lipophilicity it isn't just lipophilicity donated by the ester groups on the simple morphine carboxylate esters that determines euphorigenic potential. There are significant differences between H and morphine, as well as 6-MAM, I lack data on DPM in this respect but there is selectivity between alternately spliced isoforms of MOR between H and morphine, and H is different again to 6-monoacetylmorphine. Its also known that H and 6-MAM have different activities if the subject administered them is dependent on/tolerant to morphine beforehand, with H/6-MAM taking on properties as a delta-OR agonist, and the interesting thing is, that H and 6-MAM are selective in their agonism at DOR subtypes. I forget which way round it is, but one of them becomes (with respect for its delta agonism that is) DOR1 selective and the other for DOR2.

And lipophilicity increases with chain length of the ester moities does it not? since the last post where I mentioned dibenzoylmorphine, I've tried it, and I've also tried n-butyrylmorphine (what fun THAT was. Had complaints about a vacuum chamber exhausting pure distilled essence of puke from the pump for at least a week afterwards:p) and whilst I've not really explored dibenzoylmorphine much, not enough to get a thorough handle on its potency and duration relative to the others, it is active, and more potent than morphine. Other than that it seemed qualitatively to be just another morphine ester without anything exceptional about it.

In the case of 3,6-di-(n)-butyrylmorphine potency dropped off significantly compared to the propionate ester (note there will almost certainly have been some 6-monoacylmorphine derivatives present in small amounts owing to the acylation not going to 100% completion, there is typically some presence of 6-monoacylmorphine, the corresponding 3-monoester (although hopefully minimal, since it seems to, according to forensic examinations of 'home bake' as done in NZ and their replicating the process comparing EPNS spoons in which the reaction has been performed with stainless steel (EPNS-electroplated nickel-silver) although these were all done in glass (although EPNS in the form of solid pieces, with the surface scratched well to ensure that if there is a catalytic process going on that involves the Ni-Ag bilayer interface that it has a chance to have sufficient surface area exposed, that where the acyl halides were used rather than acid anhydrides the halides seemed to generate relatively little unreacted morphine, a small quantity of 6-acylmorphine and the majority being the diester, with only traces detectable via GC/MS whilst anhydrides appear to have a significantly greater tendency towards some mono-acylation, and in more significant ratios between the monoesters and the diester, and EPNS (the NZ homebake cooks apparently often had preferred spoons to do their simple rxn in, being electroplated nickel-silver, and when compared with stainless in an analysis comparing various times, heats, whether morphine base or sulfate were used, and whether the process was conducted with an acyl halide or the equivalent anhydride EPNS vs stainless did seem to make a difference to the numbers. [in this case it was acetylation being studied, rather than propionylation so the precise numbers will likely differ. Shouldn't imagine that its that common for people to go for the propionate ester though or more would probably be heard of it. The halides appear to result in much less of the 3-monoester)

There are a fair few papers out there which show H to be qualitatively different from morphine.

And as for the fentanyls, all of them I've sampled or had used on me medically share that same empty soulless character. Alfentanil and lofentanil somewhat less than the others. Plain fentanyl itself though, I really wouldn't give it the time of day unless I was in opiate withdrawal. They push up tolerance like theres no tomorrow, they exhibit strong tachyphylaxis, most of them are fairly short acting and there is in my experience with them very little euphoria and less rush.

Different people respond differently to different opioids, thats something I've heard said a LOT about fentanyl. Its all quantity, no quality. I'd be glad of it if I had terminal cancer, sure, but I'd have to have nothing else before I paid anybody for it. I get more euphoria from codeine or dihydrocodeine than I do from fentanyl. Got given a script for it once and I was back the next morning to the clinic to get a script for oxycontin instead (albeit I get little euphoria from oxy and no rush but its still better than fentanyl)
 
Top