Kratom: Let's Face It!

[Rectify]

No one knows how it works, pharmacologically.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

Yeah and now that big pharm is getting sued maybe (hopefully) they will leave it alone (legally).
Just got a half key after two months off.
Love it.
Takes the crack fiend away.

 

[asecin]

what do you mean no one knows how it works? there are shitload of literature of how it works. just going on wikipedia and following the citations you get the bigger picture. i dont get what you are saying. do you mean like literally how it interacts with each individual's special chemistry? because nobody knows how any drug or herb of this world ever existing has been shown in any way exactly how it manipulates each individual's unique biochemistry.

 

[Rectify]

The latter

 

[asecin]

well, kratom is a natural by product. unlike any other pill or pharmaceutical. heroin or opium and cocaine which are natural by products too, BUT become so filtered and degraded by chemicals that they become so obstructed from its nature, and become diluted stripped bare to bones poisons. because natural residues in products is what still connects you in some still impossible to decipher way, to nature and its origins. i can have many examples but alcohol comes to mind like; hard alcohol like vodka and other hard liquors are usually claiming triple or even more distillation as if thats good. thats removing any part of its natural original ever existing in all of its essence. turning it into a stripped down, toxin. lets look at beer or wine now. especially beer and wine with their residues from natural fermentation leaves so much natural material inside.
it leaves some connection to many parts of you body to hang on to and understand without your ability to comprehend. i associate it with most of our natural bacterial fermentation. moment you take out those nature 's "natural connects", bacteria is confused and disconnected by lack of real contact to its natural existence. same goes with ultra processed food, but im sure you have read many articles on this by now and should know better. processed food removes many residues and "clings" for our bacterial to hold on to. it causes severe problems throughout the body, especially inflammation and various other issues with more specific to stomach and colon.
anyway point is, kratom works in much more natural state than any filtered or standardized extracts or pills out there. and that sadly is not always predictable because you cannot always know or tell how it will react with you depending on your unique specific biochemical status and bacteria at time of consumption.
SO! to sum it up!! Avoid processed crap which isolates as much as possible from nature as it is imaginably possible aka hard rough liquor, hard rough drugs, hard processed foods,, even if 15 time distilled, tested and standardized. AND concentrate on more connection to natural whole based products regardless alcohol, drugs or food. all of them will work fine IF maximized pure whole.

 

[Hodor]

Ugh, that is just peak naturalistic fallacy. The reason hard liquor is more problematic is simply because there's more of the active compound in a given volume of beverage - it is considerably easier to lose track of your intake when a single shot of whiskey contains more alcohol than an entire bottle of beer.

If what you said about drugs being too far removed from nature was in any way true, then LSD would be toxic as hell and all the hippies would be eating rye ergot. Edibles made with hash oil? Wayyy too unnatural, from now on it's strictly datura for me!

Also, the idea that plucky penniless kratom importers are bravely taking on evil Big Pharma is similarly divorced from reality. In America, "Big Supplement" is in some ways more privileged than "Big Pharma", with drugs that are actual prescription pharmaceuticals in other countries (like tianeptine or phenibut) being sold as unregulated supplements in the US, no clinical trials or anything necessary.

 

[Xorkoth]

The "I only take natural stuff, mannnn" argument is so tired. There was this one time a friend of a friend asked if I could get acid. So we met up. I told him I could get 1p-LSD, which becomes LSD once eaten. He looked at me like I was a piece of shit and literally said "I only do natural stuff like LSD and MDMA". I didn't even know what to say, it didn't seem there was any point to informing him that actually both of those drugs are synthetic, so I just left.

 

[sekio]

There's no evidence on pharmacology of M.speciosa?
So what are these?

Pharmacologic and clinical assessment of kratom - PubMed

Kratom exerts opioid and α-2 receptor agonistic effects as well as antiinflammatory and parasympathetic-impeding effects. Human pharmacologic, pharmacokinetic, and clinical data are of low quality, precluding any firm conclusions regarding safety and efficacy.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Abuse liability of mitragynine assessed with a self-administration procedure in rats - PubMed

These results suggest a limited abuse liability of mitragynine and potential for mitragynine treatment to specifically reduce opioid abuse. With the current prevalence of opioid abuse and misuse, it appears currently that mitragynine is deserving of more extensive exploration for its development...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Evaluating the hematological and clinical-chemistry parameters of kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) users in Malaysia - PubMed

These data suggest that even long-term and heavy kratom consumption did not significantly alter the hematological and clinical-chemistry parameters of kratom users in a traditional setting.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pharmacology of kratom: an emerging botanical agent with stimulant, analgesic and opioid-like effects - PubMed

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) is a plant indigenous to Thailand and Southeast Asia. Kratom leaves produce complex stimulant and opioid-like analgesic effects. In Asia, kratom has been used to stave off fatigue and to manage pain, diarrhea, cough, and opioid withdrawal. Recently, kratom has become...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

etc.

 

[asecin]

Ugh, that is just peak naturalistic fallacy. The reason hard liquor is more problematic is simply because there's more of the active compound in a given volume of beverage - it is considerably easier to lose track of your intake when a single shot of whiskey contains more alcohol than an entire bottle of beer.

If what you said about drugs being too far removed from nature was in any way true, then LSD would be toxic as hell and all the hippies would be eating rye ergot. Edibles made with hash oil? Wayyy too unnatural, from now on it's strictly datura for me!

Also, the idea that plucky penniless kratom importers are bravely taking on evil Big Pharma is similarly divorced from reality. In America, "Big Supplement" is in some ways more privileged than "Big Pharma", with drugs that are actual prescription pharmaceuticals in other countries (like tianeptine or phenibut) being sold as unregulated supplements in the US, no clinical trials or anything necessary.

actually, LSD in comparison to shrooms can be quiet potent and "unnatural" in mcg dose. while i cannot think of any way to get fucked up on mcg of a shroom!? if you read reports on people doing shrooms and acid, they compare shrooms to more natural high and connection with nature. they are natural product containing fiber, nutrients etc. while LSD is tiny power dose of a more stimulative psychotactive that doesnt feel as "warm" as by some people reports. i can attest to that personally.
BUT shrooms did make me go crazy and suicidal once when i overdosed. too much in nature is definately not good but much easier to calculate. its difficult with tiny mcg of acid though. i guess dose is important and also quality. but in general, i do prefer more natural based things as they are not concentrated on bioactives as synthetics are. humans through chemistry have managed to take mega grams toxins from nature and turning them into micro dose poisons while it takes a while to get poisoned by consuming it in nature. its natural predatory warning that we have evolved to deal with throughout our beginings.
anyway interesting you picked on the drug argument, but not the food argument. you might as well argue ultra processed foods are also better for digestion since people can continue consuming them over and over until obese.
but its just how i see it anyway its a matter of opinion. i believe you are right in your view too. i agree with some of that but also i think i have some good points as well. not really trying to derail this thread seriously :/

 

[Xorkoth]

LSD being more potent means nothing except that if you had pure LSD and pure mushrooms, you'd have to be way more careful handling the LSD. There are extremely potent substances in plants that can kill you in a microgram range. There are extremely impotent synthetic substances that are extremely benign. Many people, myself included, find LSD much easier to handle than mushrooms. I'd take LSD any day over mushrooms, if my intention was a recreational, easygoing experience. That said, I love mushrooms and have had my most profound experience on them. But I rarely use them. And I certainly don't consider LSD somehow less worthy as a psychedelic because it was made in a lab. It's entirely feasible (even possible, there are brominated substances very close in structure to 2C-B, for example, found in some ocean species) that some synthetic psychedelics either are found in nature and we haven't discovered them, or could evolve. After all, many compounds Shulgin created and studied are extremely close to mescaline in structure. Just because a plant synthesized something and a human synthesized something else does not automatically make the plant one better and safer.

No one is saying that synthetic drugs are better, only that you have to look at the individual properties of the chemical(s) and not whether it's produced from nature or a lab. There are tons of plants that would be way worse for you than ultra-processed food.

Also I think when you're talking about nutrition it's a little bit different because we evolved for millions of years eating certain foods so our bodies are going to be much more efficient at extracting the proper nutrition from those plants, and they expect all of hose nutrients as well, and in certain ratios/combinations. Whereas we didn't evolve to survive daily on drugs. It's not like all humans have been eating mushrooms to get high for millions of years and LSD comes in and disturbs our delicate balance of organ functioning (like eating only highly processed food does due to lack of necessary micronutrients our bodies expect to have). A few cultures used some psychedelic/psychoactive plants, and for many it was only the shamans. If you don't take any drugs, you're fine. If you don't get proper nutrition, you get sick. You can't directly compare drugs and food.

 

[sekio]

Many of the most potent toxins known to man are natural... saxitoxin, ricin, strychnine, fluoroacetate... cyanide even (cyanogenic glycosides).

Fusarium mold and insect parts are 'natural' too, but I don't want them in my peanut butter.

 

[Neithman]

what concerns me with kratom is the unknown pesticide residues which are potentially found in it.Its grown illegal and unsupervised and im pretty sure they use all kinds of hefty pesticides to get a higher yield.If the dosages would be very low that wouldnt matter,but if you take 20 grams of the stuff daily..

 

[asecin]

yeah but kratom also has the highest concentration of catechins when compared to tea, cacao and wine. it should be considered a superfood by those american food gurus. anyway, i didnt save the article that said that, but googling shows some results if anyone interested. personally, definately feels like combo of wine cacao and tea for me at times. and its coming from an expert of all them. long history and experience.
BUT whatever they did to me, i try to stay clear off all of them now

 

[Skorpio]

Superfood is a term that has more validity in advertising than it does health. LSD stimulates due to dopamine agonism not any natural quality. Kratom is a mixed function delta mu opioid with alpha 2 adrenergic antagonist properties, catechins can cause liver toxicity in high doses (green tea extract and all) (also kratom can cause liver toxicity, there are reports out there).

We are all just taking chemicals that activate or block receptors, our bodies dont discriminate at the molecular level. There may be sociological effects and strengthening of the placebo effect if you believe a certain form is better than another.

 

[asecin]

superfood is an american invention. i believe all those soccer moms with their super green juices had something to do with it.
anyway, im now using it as mockery of this sick culture im part, UNWILLINGLY. and I can not really avoid. might as well join in and parody their retardness. what else am i to do really? stand against it and critisize ? ill be an outcast!
for me, yes, LSD is super food! what else do i need when on LSD? certainty not food as thats all the nutrition ill need!