Ketamine and oxalic acid

[Dr Mamba]

Damages caused by ketamine looks very similar to those of oxalic acid.
Of course, ketamine dont metabolize in oxalic acid, but do you think there is something to dig in that way ?

 

[Skorpio]

Are you implying a physical mechanism of ketamine bladder damage, through crystal formation in the ureters?

 

[AlsoTapered]

Are you implying a physical mechanism of ketamine bladder damage, through crystal formation in the ureters?

Credit where it's due - HIIS English beats MY French by a country mile.

As for KBS

Ketamine-Induced Apoptosis in Normal Human Urothelial Cells: A Direct, N-Methyl-d-Aspartate Receptor–Independent Pathway Characterized by Mitochondrial Stress

Recreational abuse of ketamine has been associated with the emergence of a new bladder pain syndrome, ketamine-induced cystitis, characterized by chronic inflammation and urothelial ulceration. We investigated the direct effects of ketamine on normal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apparently not. I was convinced it MUST be an impurity of metabolite but no, ketamine causes apoptosis and researchers are now probing the precise mechanism.

PCP also reaches the bladder where it is reabsorbed but who knows if PCP is similarly toxic BUT being so much more potent and lipophilic, it didn't turn up in the 1970s (or turned up infrequently enough for a connection to be established).

 

[Skorpio]

I recall reading a review where it was proposed that the bdnf signalling effects of ketamine promoted fibrosis.

I kind of don't buy that, as this seems like an arylcyclohexylamine issue, and lots of drugs indirectly impinge on that path of signaling.

 

[AlsoTapered]

I recall reading a review where it was proposed that the bdnf signalling effects of ketamine promoted fibrosis.

I kind of don't buy that, as this seems like an arylcyclohexylamine issue, and lots of drugs indirectly impinge on that path of signaling.

As I said, I did look to see if any PCP-related cases of bladder damage were reported but came up with nothing.

MAYBE it's secondary amine - the NH is in some way important to the damage?

But at least we now know that it's K itself, not metabolite/impurity.

Eyes closed and randomly throwing dart at molecule - the halogen. It will direct the hydroxylation of the ring. A TOTAL guess on my part, but aromatic organochlorines cause bladder damage.

Chlorobenzene: Acute Exposure Guideline Levels - Acute Exposure Guideline Levels for Selected Airborne Chemicals - NCBI Bookshelf

I'm sure I will be wrong.

 

[Dr Mamba]

thanks for the link !
the problem with oxalic acid is that calcium oxalate are create in the blood, and then when they are filtred in kindney, they are stuck in it.
but ketamine users mainely complain about bladder pain.
they talk about "peeing razers"
can a ketamine metabolite, or someting else métabolite that form, cause ketamine inhibe the "normal" way this other thing is usualy metabolise,
create specificaly in pee micro cristals ?

i've read in BL someone exlaining, and i have test it myself, that the pain is lower when they eat someting that basified blood ( like organic salt of na,k,mg, whatever)
sorry my chemical and biological knowledge is very basic so I ask here.
this can easily proved wrong if you take pee from a ketamine user, put acid in it, and wait, then look if no micro cristals are create ?

 

[G_Chem]

I recall reading a review where it was proposed that the bdnf signalling effects of ketamine promoted fibrosis.

I kind of don't buy that, as this seems like an arylcyclohexylamine issue, and lots of drugs indirectly impinge on that path of signaling.

Agreed, wouldn’t that mean most psychedelics would cause this issue too? Which we don’t see.

-GC

 

[AlsoTapered]

Agreed, wouldn’t that mean most psychedelics would cause this issue too? Which we don’t see.

-GC

Do you mean 'psychedelics' or 'dissociatives'? I haven't read about the signalling and admit that I'm asking rather than reading the large volume of papers.

 

[Skorpio]

Do you mean 'psychedelics' or 'dissociatives'? I haven't read about the signalling and admit that I'm asking rather than reading the large volume of papers.

There was a paper that showed direct binding at Trkb receptors by psychadelics, MDMA, ketamine, and only at high concentrations, SSRIs.

It seems kind of iconoclastic though.