Illegally searched

Titus said:
...And tobala I entirely agree with you about what the police actually are. It just seems that we have different opinions on how to interact with them when we are confronted by them.
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Not too different. You like to confront with a grimace (albeit a polite one) on your face while I like to subvert with a smile on mine. Both are very necessary and useful functions in a war against a common enemy. :)
 
Nickatina said:
No, just to be careful. In the post 9/11 era - read the flyer! In what to look for in a terrorist, it gives you:

-Request authority for a stop
-Make numerous references to constitution
-Claim driving is a right, not a privlige
-Attempt to "police the police"

NOTICE it says "If you encounter any of the following, call the joint terrorism task force."

All I am saying is don't go overboard and give them any reason to label you as a terrorist - because if you are, you could be in for a lot more shit.

Believe me, I believe in the Constitution as that is what our country is based on and I don't discourage people from trying to use it to their advantage. Is a cop going to call homeland security if you refuse a search? Nowadays? Let the flyer speak for itself. You're rolling the dice.
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If you honestly believe that I'd say the "war" is lost and the best advice would be to get out of the US while its still possible and await the inevitable implosion and international cleanup. If you really think any of those listed things is going to get you labeled a terrorist and dragged into some official dungeon somewhere its over.
 
What I don't think you guys realize is that just because you are labeled a "terrorist" does not mean that you are going to be sent to a camp and tortured. In the Patriot Act the definition of a terrorist is so vague, it basically means anyone who commits a crime. And with these new guidelines being passed out, if they decide that you fit the bill then your rights are completely stripped. In fact, new laws have stripped us of most of the rights that were granted to us by the constitution and the bill of rights (I'm probably labeled a terrorist after these posts.) And now with super-databases, you will be logged as a potential threat [notice how it instructs the police to call the terrorist task force? Don't think your name won't be added including what you said/did].

You can choose to live in delusion and think that you are protected by these rights, but time and time again these arguments have been shot down, especially recently (post 9/11). Don't get me wrong, I believe you should assert yourself and try to beat an illegal, immoral search in any way possible but I just want people to be aware that it is nearly impossible to avoid this because of the guidelines and laws put into place during the Bush administration.

Oh, and saying you do not consent to a search of your vehicle is policing the police - think about it. They want to do it and you won't allow them to. That is such a vague guideline that almost any assertive action would qualify.
 
If I step out of the car, lock it, and close the door, and the cop then requests that I unlock the car (assuming they have no reasonable cause to search the car) am I required by law to unlock the car?
 
mooncaller said:
No big deal, right?
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correct, when you consider the cost of pursuing a lawsuit. i pointed this out in my original post.

mooncaller said:
The dude said that the cop found NOTHING.
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i misread. my bad.

to everyone else: let's try and stay on topic. this is not the appropriate place for a general discourse on police powers.
 
danstabbingworth said:
If I step out of the car, lock it, and close the door, and the cop then requests that I unlock the car (assuming they have no reasonable cause to search the car) am I required by law to unlock the car?
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No. No mroe so than if I or any other random stranger REQUESTS that you unlock your car.

The key is to determine if it is a request or a command and the way you do that is to ask him. And if he REQUESTS that you unlock your your reply should be that "Officer, I do not consent to searches".

It is always wrong to disobey and ORDER from the police but it is not wrong to refuse a REQUEST any more than it is wrong to refuse a reqeust of any other stranger. The thing is people get intimidated by the gun and badge and police car and the officers intentional additude of intimidation so they FEEL like they are compelled to comply with requests.

The appropraiate thing to do is to clarify if it is a request or a command. And if he phrased it as a request, it is a request.
 
Watch this video made my a former top ranking ACLU dude who walks youi through the wrong way, and then the correct way, to deal with police encounters during traffic stops, stops on foot, and when the cops knock on your door. IT is a long video but I HIGHLY recommend it. Watch it over and over until the correct way to deal with the police is so engrained within you that it is second nature

http://www.leechvideo.com/video/view566.html
 
garuda said:
If you honestly believe that I'd say the "war" is lost and the best advice would be to get out of the US while its still possible and await the inevitable implosion and international cleanup. If you really think any of those listed things is going to get you labeled a terrorist and dragged into some official dungeon somewhere its over.
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Lets be realistic. Cops are not gonna call Homeland Security on some random dudes that are pulled over for speeding and say they don't consent to searches and inquire as to what their legal status is.

What they are going to do, unless they have strong reason to believe that they can catch you up in a bunch of shit is give you a ticket and get rid of you quick. There are a million suckers who bend over and show their bunghole to the cops whenever the cops ask them to. In other words the cops know there are millions of better people to fuck with, why take a gamble with someone who knows and asserts their rights unless they already have probable cause. If they have a reasonable suspicion to detain you so be it, just keep your mouth shut.
 
Titus, have you ever HAD to deal with cops before? How about a cop pulling you over and sounding over the intercom "PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE ROOF OF THE CAR IMMEDIATELY, AND DON'T MOVE". Without asking for consent or explaining why he was doing it, he took each one of us out of the car and searched the seats, then the trunk. One person had a dime bag of weed, another a little more. They got arrested and charged. When they pulled me out I asked why they are doing this, one cop turned to me pointing his finger and yelled "Keep your fucking mouth shut until I tell you to talk! You got that?" Eventually, we found out why they pulled us over - a broken headlight. We still don't know why they decided to search us in the oppressive and brutal manner that they did. Police can do whatever they want, buddy. Welcome to USA 2.0
 
Nickatina said:
Titus, have you ever HAD to deal with cops before? How about a cop pulling you over and sounding over the intercom "PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE ROOF OF THE CAR IMMEDIATELY, AND DON'T MOVE". Without asking for consent or explaining why he was doing it, he took each one of us out of the car and searched the seats, then the trunk. One person had a dime bag of weed, another a little more. They got arrested and charged. When they pulled me out I asked why they are doing this, one cop turned to me pointing his finger and yelled "Keep your fucking mouth shut until I tell you to talk! You got that?" Eventually, we found out why they pulled us over - a broken headlight. We still don't know why they decided to search us in the oppressive and brutal manner that they did. Police can do whatever they want, buddy. Welcome to USA 2.0
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Do you think I don't understand that police can and do get away with murder? I have already said that in this thread. My advice is not a magic wand that is going to turn a cop into an angel if he is intent on violating your civil rights.


I have been pulled over suspected of car jacking (6 cruisers responded).
I have been beaten unconscious by police for nothing more than talking shit.
I have been beated on other occasions by police for nothing more than being a wise ass.
I have intentionally been taken to the police station in the black/gang dominated part of town despite being picked up in a totally different part of town where I should have been brought to a different station.

In all of those situations I handled myself wrong. Most of them by being drunk in public and talking shit.

The first one my only mistake (the only time I was sober, think there is a cooincidence here?) was to not ask the officer if he was requesting that I remove items in my pocket or ORDERING me to do so after he did his terry pat down.

What is your advice when approached by a cop for a routine traffic stop and he says "you don't have any drugs do you, you don't mind if I check?" ????

What is your advice when a cop walks up to you on the street and starts fishing type questions with you?

In my past, after getting through my drunken rage stage I got involved with some serious people. I also had money for expensive lawyers behind me at that point. I sitll thoght it was fun to fuck with the cops, my favorite was to say, when a cop asked me a question: "That conversation does not interest me" lol Where were you at such and such? Why were you so and so? Why didn't you bla bla bla "Officer, that conversation does not interst me".

I dont consent to searches. I dont incriminate myself or provide any statements that incriminate anyone else in criminal activity (aside for civid duty if I saw an old lad get mugged or something).

I don't allow police into my residence without a search warrant.

I know people who have done 20 years for murder, people who have done time for trafficing, people connected to the mafia, armed robbers, etc.

But when I deal with the police now, which is rarely, I present as humble and respectful, but I assert my rights. I do so in a respectful way, I don't smirk at the cop or use a tone of voice to indicate I am trying to have fun by getting under his skin.

The biggest lesson that people need to learn is to simply keep their mouths shut when interacting with the police. People hang themselves left and right because cops are trained to psychologically and emotionally fuck with you to get you to incriminate yourself.

I actually went to a few high pressure vacation time share seminars when they try all sorts of high pressure tactics to get you to buy just to practice and for the menal and psychological challenge of it. I found it interesting and fun to watch all these different people try all their different approaches to get me to buy. It amused me.

If anyone here wants to voluntarilly give up their rights then that is up to them. I do not do that.

I recommend people watch the video link.
 
Nickatina said:
Titus, have you ever HAD to deal with cops before? How about a cop pulling you over and sounding over the intercom "PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE ROOF OF THE CAR IMMEDIATELY, AND DON'T MOVE". Without asking for consent or explaining why he was doing it, he took each one of us out of the car and searched the seats, then the trunk. One person had a dime bag of weed, another a little more. They got arrested and charged. When they pulled me out I asked why they are doing this, one cop turned to me pointing his finger and yelled "Keep your fucking mouth shut until I tell you to talk! You got that?" Eventually, we found out why they pulled us over - a broken headlight. We still don't know why they decided to search us in the oppressive and brutal manner that they did. Police can do whatever they want, buddy. Welcome to USA 2.0
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So the command to put your hands on the roof is an order and it is to be obeyed immediately. When you say he 'took' each one of you out of the car do you mean he grabbed you and pulled you out? Did any of you at any time state that you do not consent to a search of the vehicle?

As far as the advice the cop gave you to keep your mouth shut, that is my advice when dealing with cops as well.

What was the profile of you and your buddies? If I happend to see you guys in the car and reflected upon what you guys were like, did for fun, ect, what would I likely surmise? What is your image? What is your friends images? What is the image the car projects?

Cops are still going to violate people's rights, we all know that. I am not an idiot. But I think the information I am providing is useful and educational.

If you disagree I would love to continue to discuss why (be that things I post in this thread or elsewhere). I often make mistakes and like to learn from them (as well as from the mistakes of others so I get a freebee).

How do you carry yourself around the police, like a polite gentleman or like a young kid that dislikes cops and is into drugs? Does it come across in the way you look at them or the tone of voice you use when provoked by them? I am mr. humble pie, I may have a few keys in the trunk of my car but they are never even going to ask me to get out of the car, let alone search it. That was not the case when I was between the ages of 16-24 and the main reason is because of the way that I presented myself.
 
Are you young? Wearing provocative clothing? Blasting loud music out the car?

What you described I have never observed or had happen, and the reason it happened is before speaking to you the officer was 99% certain you had drugs on you and that he could fuck with you with impunity. Now ask yourself why he thought that? And think about how you can avoid projecting that aura, and project an aura of someone who probably does not have contraband and will hire a lawyer to fight unlawful searches.

I know it shouldn't be this way but lets be realistic it is this way, has been this way since the beginning of time. Stop thinking up wild conspiracy theories and take off the weed leaf T shirt.

And Titus I was responding to Nicka, if he really feels that way I think he should do the prudent thing which is leave before ending up in a camp.
 
No in my example it was 4 kids in a car, no one was smoking, music was not being played. We were not speeding, there was no probable cause. We had no chance to assert our rights because the officer did not ask for consent to do any of what he did. The only reason given was the broken headlight.

I agree 100% that when you do get a cop that goes by the book, you need to take the precautions that almost nobody does in using the rights that are available to you. I am just trying to point out the fact that sometimes that just doesn't work and laws are being passed every day to protect the rights of the state over the people.

Do I think this is the Gestapo? No. But undercover police vehicles, checkpoints, warrantless searches, nation-wide information sharing ... I just want to spread awareness of what is going on instead of being lulled into a false sense of security.

I am a firm believer in human rights and everything that you all suggested are very good ideas and your best chance to get out of trouble. Not everyone can afford a good lawyer, so sometimes we need to take matters into our own hands. The biggest key is to never, ever self-incriminate yourself.

And Garuda, 1. it hasn't been this way since the beginning of time, that is a lame excuse to accept the shortcomings of police control, 2. I am not giving outlandish conspiracy theories, just stating fact that you obviously are not aware of and 3. no officer is allowed to decide who to search based on profiling. If you want to accept this as is then fine, but I'm going to speak out against violations of our rights.
 
Nickatina said:
I am just trying to point out the fact that sometimes that just doesn't work and laws are being passed every day to protect the rights of the state over the people.

Do I think this is the Gestapo? No. But undercover police vehicles, checkpoints, warrantless searches, nation-wide information sharing ... I just want to spread awareness of what is going on instead of being lulled into a false sense of security.
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I am 100% agreement with you and actually do think the police are very close to a Gestapo-esque organization. I applaud your desire to spread awareness. I, for one, am not trying to lull anyone into a false sense of security.

I encourage you to start multiple threads about some of the things you mentioned above, which seem to concern us both a great deal. I advertize to the general public via buper stickers such things.

Please, please, please spread the awareness that the United States is turning into a police state.

Hitler/the nazi's/gestapo invented the term 'Homeland' as in homeland security.

This country is going to hell in a handbasket. Ideology (whether it be left or right) is simply an excuse to control other people.
 
The above is the last post I will approve on this thread that has to do with broad public policy.

We need to return to specifics regarding the original post, which had to do with a car search.

Please start any new broad public policy-related threads in the Current Events and Politics forum.
 
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