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Misc I am too associated - supplements?

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
3,653
Don't know whether you understand what I'm referring to with 'being too associated' - basically the opposite of the dissociative effect of dissociatives. Just take off the trip and stimulation. It is possibly autism spectrum related, at least a buddy who was diagnosed by Dr. Asperger herself told me that she thinks I'm affected too. I feel overstimulated by social interaction what makes me an introvert even when I don't like it but socializing without a dissociative is so fucking hard and power sucking for example. I was a nerd in school, preferably spending my time behind some screen (yea I was before the millennia generation) but these days my biggest problem is attention, as well as irritability by other people, even my gf triggers that from time to time and then I want just to be alone. Dissos were my DOC for long time and in past I was addicted to them. If I take one it facilitates socializing so so much. I can't continue using because I can't import RCs here and DXM stopped working some years ago.

Any ideas what supplements might help? I know that agmatine works on the NMDAr as well but the reports aren't so good. Selank maybe? I've used kratom for some time but given my high natural tolerance to opioids (what might be connected, I remember some papers linking endogenous opioid peptides to ASD) it was weak and I had to take 15g for some effects which is difficult to take every day.

Please don't recommend SSRIs, I was on one or another most of my adult life and they were an absolute bitch to stop. I'm better off without, more energy and less depressed but also more irritable. 😐
 
Semax is likely "associative", as far as I'm aware it's an NMDA agonist. I know you said Selank, but Semax is the closest thing I could think of, off the top of my head. I can't figure out exactly what it does as far as NMDA receptors so I'll just quote a study I found while trying: Predominance of Nootropic or Anxiolytic Effects of Selank, Semax, and Noopept Peptides Depending on the Route of Administration to BALB/c and С57BL/6 Mice

It's behind a paywall but this is just in the abstract:
In BALB/c mice, i.p. administration of noopept and i.n. administration of selank increased the density of NMDA-receptors in the hippocampus and i.n. administration of noopept and semax reduced their density, with no effect on mGluII-receptors.
So... make of that what you will, maybe it's worth a shot. It's strange because both noopept, semax, and selank in my experience are anti-dissociative, as in, they are essentially dissociative antidotes capable of rapidly returning one from close to K-hole to pretty much fully associated normality - if with some residual mental scatteredness - they are almost completely curative of distorted perception, movement, probably anaesthesia, and any majorly significant cognitive distortions (this is true, at least, of the less weird dissociatives, more sedating ones that are closer to ketamine in effect - the curative effect is less surprisingly acute with some of the weirder ones, the PCP analogues and such).

Both noopept and selank I find to be anxiolytic despite this though, so I guess it could be simply that they both have higher affinities for NMDAr that the majority of known dissociatives, whereas their actual action on those receptors varies. So yeah, selank is worth a short. Noopept too, I'd say - although the latter can definitely be brainfoggy, and the anxiolysis can take a while to fully manifest (maybe 7-10 days of 3x daily dosing, IME). I have less experience with Selank - it definitely could be brainfoggy too but the anxiolytic effect is more immediate, I think, and maybe longer lasting, possibly also more sustainable as noopept the advice is to take breaks every 40 days or so, but, this is almost pure conjecture now, neither is well studied and my own experience is limited and hasn't involved particularly rigorous self-analysis... somewhat to my own frustration with myself.

You might also try memantine - it is essentially a dissociative but in low doses not functionally impairing, many people advise building up gradually from, say, 2.5mg a day to 10, 20 or even 40mg depending on, I guess, how far you feel you need to go. The point of building up gradually is to avoid any significant impairment as your brain can gradually acclimatise to it - but it can possibly cause a slight reduction in intellectual capacity, maybe brainfog also - at least this was my perception - again, not a rigorously examined one - and possibly a result of tapering upwards too quickly, or just giving up too early out of impatience. It is an interesting substance though, likely very safe for long term use, and with some glowing anecdotal reports of people taking it for similar reasons to you.

On the milder end of things, as far as what you could probably buy in any random health shop - some form of highly bioavailable magnesium - chelated magnesium glycinate, off the top of my head, I think is one of the best - would be mildly NMDA-antagonising and, therefore, perhaps, mildly dissociative... many people report it to help with sleep, to be somewhat calming... as a pretty seasoned dissociative user I personally do not find it to be anything special or even, really, noticeable, although I still keep some around, and YMMV.

There's also l-theanine, an anxiolytic amino acid for which the body seems to have no homeostatic mechanism by which to develop tolerance to it or reduce it's effectiveness. I'm unsure where it falls on the scale of functional dissociation, but... it definitely is effective, if mild, and seems to be something that can be used long term.

I would definitely stay away from opiates, even kratom, that is not sustainable and will wreck your baseline state of mind the longer you take it, leading you to feel worse in a way that opiates can no longer correct. Same goes, honestly, for most "proper" dissociatives themselves - unfortunately - definitely DXM, not surprising that stopped worked. These substances are all just far too powerful, blunt instruments with a broad spectrum of effects, not all of them desirable, and that your brain can and will compensate for fairly quickly in ways that are not going to be desirable to you either.

Magnesium, l-theanine, selank, memantine, maybe noopept... definitely those ones I'd give a shot. I listed them roughly in the order that I would attempt them even though I don't think magnesium will do much for you if I'm honest, and noopept I didn't rank last because I think it's most effective, just because I'm less certain about how sustainable it is or how reliable the anxiolytic effects are, as well as the variability in reported possible side effects (brainfog maybe as I mentioned - I just remembered also that I experienced significant loss of libido while I was taking it which resolved within days of quitting).



EDIT: I'll just add also... I actually really understand what you mean and identify with it, being too "associated" is something I struggle with, presently, and for some time. I don't socialise with dissociatives because I find it to be too risky, I am apparently not so great at walking the line between threshold functionality and obvious impairment, but I am strongly drawn to them for their power to simply switch off the emotions that I don't fully understand and find it exhausting to deal with. Unfortunately I have abused them and despite that pull that still remains they are nowhere near as reliable as relief as they once were, and quite often have a depressive effects in the days to even weeks after, and while I still, much to my own frustration with myself, have not entirely cut out ketamine - I am working on it and my use is more and more infrequent, ideally it'll gradually asymptote to zero.

My attention span is currently almost nonexistent and my desire to socialise is equally pretty much in the toilet. I have an absurd need for alone time for no particular reason - very much resonated with me that you said even your girlfriend triggers you from time to time - I observe the same thing in myself. It is particularly difficult because it's so hard to explain, it's not anything she's doing - I just can't handle spending too long with anyone, right now. I've attempted to medicate my inability to care about almost anything and my pathological social avoidance with both stimulants (primarily modafinil, but amphetamine at peak dysfunction) and opiates (tianeptine, kratom - the latter of which is far, far less sustainable - tianeptine I found much more forgiving) but the effectiveness of all of these things waned to the point the side effects were more trouble to deal with than what I was trying to treat. The resultant anxiety from this maddening cycle as well as, just, life, I guess, my default emotional state, I've tried to medicate with GABAergics, phenibut, benzos... this was equally and predictably unsustainable. I'm currently abstinent from pretty much everything except the odd minor K binge every month or so and if I'm honest the odd few days of some kind of benzo or a stimulant thrown in when my frustration at my own psychological inertia gets too much. Honestly I'm kinda jaded about everything right now, but, probably I'll have another go with some of the things I've recommended to you at one point.

Stimulants - while they are helpful for treating some of my symptoms - inevitably make me crave dissociatives on the fade. The association is only tolerable as long as the mood-elevating effects persist, when this subsides, the association is no longer useful or motivating but becomes unsettling and unpleasant, and it seems like only dissociatives are capable of doing anything about this. Benzos are OK... and usually will have to do if I am not capable of just riding it out... but are not the same, and usually not quite enough.

Whew, that was an unexpectedly long epilogue. In summary anyway, I empathise a lot, good luck, and please do report back.
 
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Thanks for your extensive answer, I really appreciate the effort!

Yeah I guess you know what I mean with 'being too associated', I too have developed a ridiculous need to spend time alone with myself, I've been a loner all my life but in other times I wished I had more contacts while now I tend to really desire to be alone. Just that then once I am alone with myself, I just feel a huge boredom and don't know what to do with my time. Somehow I believe this to be directly connected to the attention span - even watching a good movie has become a bit challenging, while on dissociatives I've absorbed movies and hour-long conversations went without any effort - sometimes. After years of glorifying them (was addicted to first DXM and then deschloroket) I do now agree to that dissociatives aren't meant for everyday use and indeed are blunt instruments hitting just too many receptors. You have reason not to socialize on them, I am paying a huge price for that. Sometimes I even begin thinking like these antidrugheads out there, that strong substance use leads to destruction etc. atm I don't know what to think. I've been abstinent of dissociatives for two years, opiates one year and since a few weeks even finally from SSRIs and kratom, and things healed to an amazing degree but part of it seems to be permanent. I suspect some sort of learning behavior, that I got used to easy focus, easy emotions, easy everything and now to again require efforts to focus, to socialize, to distract feels fucked up and causes an aversion, like I feel to hate to study when before my memory allowed me to read stuff once and write very good marks without effort. I hate the way life went, I thought all my life I wasn't worth that other people would spend time with myself, that I was ugly, a loser, whatever but didn't appreciate even for just a second that I had amazing abilities others would even envy me for, or that I was in excellent health and good shape for that I did next to no sports.. stuff was just there like it is for adolescents, but I wish I had appreciated and cared a bit more. I didn't require drugs but I thought I did. And fell in love with dissociatives the very first time I used them. For some time I used them controlled and seemingly got much more out than they costed me but this turned against me when I became addicted, after my first gf of 9 years kicked me out on street after a seizure like incident from probably an impure RC. Then I began using dissos to escape instead to enrich life and they turned against me. Still, taking a single dose of a dissociative now would turn me upside down and awake the desire to interact with other people, to go out, cease the fatigue etc.. anyways, they aren't available to me anymore besides DXM (which became a psychotic nightmare ever since I started doing opioids, a weird thing on its own) and had such huge destructive impact onto my life - I don't blame them but myself not listening to the warnings though and nearly sure I'd do further damage by continuing on them. It's wicked that something has such powerful positive AND negative effects at the same time.

Think I need to go try amphetamine again, I was prescribed methylphenidate and then lisdexamph even before the period of disso abuse, but it's hard to find a good doctor here who isn't senselessly afraid of evil controlled drugs, and I think I'd be in the same boat, craving dissociatives towards the end and rebound of stims. I am very sensitive to them and got teeth grinding, inner tension etc. when using them alone. Will have to try anyways, maybe stuff like high dose magnesium could help me a bit. I've ordered a variety of RC stims but the customs intercepted them, even when they were fully legal. Deep web is basically nonexistent here, only DMT and some plants were available.

Overall it's just so annoying that I'm not able to focus for any meaningful time. This text will very probably be scattered as well, but worse is learning new stuff. I need to learn Spanish and realize that I lost my abilities to do so, it feels like an impossible task, just 10 minutes and I feel mentally exhausted and annoyed. Same with social interaction, I'd mostly just say things like mhm, mhmm... yeah.. no.. but inducing a serious conversation became so hard, my mind would just go blank. This is the main symptom I have, had it before and was with what drove me into drugs but not to this strength.

Interesting that selank + semax have opposite effects on NMDAr's, selank might be worth a try then. Still, NMDAr's are kind of a mystery to me and I don't know if the hippocampus is the area I need to modify. Isn't attention made in the frontal lobe?

Memantine didn't work unfortunately, it is a weird one which doesn't really dissociate and I don't get mind fog from it, maybe I've overdosed in the search for the familiar effects - certainly is it too strong on D2 for me, I get heavy insomnia and restless legs from it. As its OTC here I might try it again, possibly together with lisdexamph if I'm able to get the latter. If taken early enough in morning, stims don't interfere with my sleep. Unfortunately the nootropics available here are severely limited and pretty expensive as they will have to pay customs to be allowed to import them I guess. But if I don't do better in future I will have to go back to my country of origin where I'm fucked up because of 5 figure number debt to health insurance and don't know where even to get a room which isn't ridiculously overpriced because all landlords check your credit score which is ruined by me sticking my head into sand due to disso abuse depression.

L-theanine I've tried up and down, it does absolutely zero for me independent of dosage. Since I've dropped SSRIs, I tolerate caffeine better which is weird, but still I only drink coffee because I don't have access to proper stims at the moment. Green tea is a bit weaker than coffee but otherwise pretty similar to me. Sometimes I still get slight brain zaps, specially with caffeine, which might indicate that I'd need more time to recover and sometimes I think I should just reintroduce fluoxetine but then again it does next to nothing for me besides masking its own withdrawal. It sucks to have nothing available against depression but the MAOIs besides moclobemide - which was a complete failure - aren't available here and tricyclics won't be better than venlafaxine was.. had a hypomania inducing effect for some weeks, that was it. A little bit of blunted emotions but most was just that non-existing addiction to SSRIs.

Was doing kratom 5-15g/d for around half a year and didn't find it too hard to quit, a few days of heightened nervousness but that was it. Yet it also didn't have many positive effects left. Interesting that you say tianeptine was more sustainable. I've been wary of that since I read a few high dose reports saying it was similar or harder to quit than heroin. Had some grams a while ago and it did nothing besides masking opioid withdrawal but I had also high tolerance to these back then.

What would you say is the best aid to increase attention span and socialization desire?
 
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