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How far would one have to be chemistry wise to be able to understand Pihkal Tihkal?

astralprojectee

Greenlighter
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
39
Can someone just like do an intense crash course and then be able to understand Pihkal Tihkal? Or would it take more like two years of chemistry or whatever? Thoughts?

Thanks.
 
Can someone just like do an intense crash course and then be able to understand Pihkal Tihkal? Or would it take more like two years of chemistry or whatever? Thoughts?

Thanks.

It depends what you mean by understand. To really understand the organic chemistry in Pihkal and Tihkal you need a PhD.=D By that I mean you would be able to perform the chemistry as well as be able to modify and improve it. Yes, I mean improve it, a lot of the chemistry in those books is from the 1960's and 1970's. There have been enormous advances in synthetic methodology since then. When I read those recipes I understand exactly what is happening at each step is and why it is being done, the reason for the choice of solvent, temperature, catalyst, etc. If you mean by understand just to perform the procedures without modification, a BS might be enough if you get a lot of laboratory experience.8)
 
It depends what you mean by understand. To really understand the organic chemistry in Pihkal and Tihkal you need a PhD.=D By that I mean you would be able to perform the chemistry as well as be able to modify and improve it. Yes, I mean improve it, a lot of the chemistry in those books is from the 1960's and 1970's. There have been enormous advances in synthetic methodology since then. When I read those recipes I understand exactly what is happening at each step is and why it is being done, the reason for the choice of solvent, temperature, catalyst, etc. If you mean by understand just to perform the procedures without modification, a BS might be enough if you get a lot of laboratory experience.8)
Hum I remember Terence Mckenna saying to make DMT is something like a second year chemistry final. Either way it seems like it would take quite a bit of learning to be able to make these psychedelics. Thanks for your input.
 
Hum I remember Terence Mckenna saying to make DMT is something like a second year chemistry final. Either way it seems like it would take quite a bit of learning to be able to make these psychedelics. Thanks for your input.

Terence McKenna was not a chemist. The common Speeter-Anthony synthesis of tryptamines (https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine.speeter-anthony.html) uses oxalyl chloride in the first step. This is a highly reactive compound that reacts vigorously with water to form HCl and CO, very toxic gaseous products. Later, the indoleglyoxylamide is reduced with LiAlH4, a solid that can ignite spontaneously in air and must be used in dry (i.e., no trace of water!) solvents under an inert atmosphere. I would never allow a second year student to do reactions with these reagents without my supervision.
 
Yeah... you really cant do any of that stuff until you move past working wiht inert atmospheres. I can tell you this much...

After 3 years of majoring in chemistry at The University of Connecticut i didnt learn shit about actual lab work. Sure we did basic stuff but we didnt even learn to vacuum distill anything which is huge if you can not work in a vacuum you can not distill a lot of organic substances. Everything i learned was "theory" so like i can do draw out pi bonding orbitals and prove how orbitals interact as their valence electrons approach one another but that isnt a real world skill. Then there is the whole knowing how to actually work in a lab Uconn taught me to be comfortable in the lab but it wasnt until i took my actual college courses into my house that started learning real chemistry.

When you really learn chemistry you learn to respect a lot of stuff. As the above person mentioned it does not take much to end up like this:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ids-prison-fatal-lab-fire-20140620-story.html

Sangji, 23, was not wearing a protective lab coat and suffered severe burns on Dec. 29, 2008, when a plastic syringe she was using to transfer t-butyl lithium from one sealed container to another came apart, spewing a chemical compound that ignites when exposed to air. She died 18 days later.

Pretty sure she was incinerated in front of people too. I really dislike how the internet makes knowledge and skill seem easily had, do you go climb mount Everest because someone posted how to do so in a forum using beer bottles and glue? Instant access to information doesnt make you an expert, it gives you an opportunity to learn but the road is long for a reason and chemistry has the type of rep it has for a reason, its not easy or forgiving.

Now ask yourself if I, who have been into chemistry since i first encountered it on TOTSE, a website in the 90s basically for the anarchists cookbook and stuff, then majored at a university took classes called "advanced inorganic 1 and 2" yet even i am afraid of working with LAH because a lot of things are unforgiving and are literally looking for a way to kill you, do you think your ready? It starts by being able to tell the difference between a florence flask and an erlenmeyer flask ;)
 
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Like all things in life you get the "rewards of your passion" for some you get to play guitar in front of a crowd and stand to make a name for yourself as a front man for an awesome band. I know a lot of people who desired that when we were young, I always dreamed of being locked in a basement doing some kind of hobby chemistry in my spare time while spending my days locked in a research lab doing research chemistry for some university.

The other funny thing is just because you can doesnt mean you will/do. I have people say "wait you mean you can do *that*" sure I suppose when i look at those two books it looks different to me and i can see a lot of substitutions to make it safer and maybe part of me dreams about doing it but when you look at it from a technical (time, money, reward) some paths stand a chance of being done but were talking weeks of work. As I can also assure you things like "3,4,5-trimethoxybenzaldehyde" can be purchased if you know people and chemists do share a network of "for us by us" type of chem sharing allowing access to a wide range but most people simply can not find the easy routes listed in those books as the precursors are not Google or found in a store, so you have to make those you can from common starting points (not always easy)
 
Yeah... you really cant do any of that stuff until you move past working wiht inert atmospheres. I can tell you this much...

After 3 years of majoring in chemistry at The University of Connecticut i didnt learn shit about actual lab work. Sure we did basic stuff but we didnt even learn to vacuum distill anything which is huge if you can not work in a vacuum you can not distill a lot of organic substances. Everything i learned was "theory" so like i can do draw out pi bonding orbitals and prove how orbitals interact as their valence electrons approach one another but that isnt a real world skill. Then there is the whole knowing how to actually work in a lab Uconn taught me to be comfortable in the lab but it wasnt until i took my actual college courses into my house that started learning real chemistry.

When you really learn chemistry you learn to respect a lot of stuff. As the above person mentioned it does not take much to end up like this:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ids-prison-fatal-lab-fire-20140620-story.html



Pretty sure she was incinerated in front of people too. I really dislike how the internet makes knowledge and skill seem easily had, do you go climb mount Everest because someone posted how to do so in a forum using beer bottles and glue? Instant access to information doesnt make you an expert, it gives you an opportunity to learn but the road is long for a reason and chemistry has the type of rep it has for a reason, its not easy or forgiving.

Now ask yourself if I, who have been into chemistry since i first encountered it on TOTSE, a website in the 90s basically for the anarchists cookbook and stuff, then majored at a university took classes called "advanced inorganic 1 and 2" yet even i am afraid of working with LAH because a lot of things are unforgiving and are literally looking for a way to kill you, do you think your ready? It starts by being able to tell the difference between a florence flask and an erlenmeyer flask ;)

One of my professors shared that same LAH story with me recently while discussing a synthesis. I believe her family sued the school for quite a bit of money as well and one because she was never taught proper safety techniques prior to working with LAH. Its one thing to read instruction from PIHKAL and TIHKAL and another to actually carry out what's relatively briefly described. Each step in a synthesis is a potential point of screwing up. A five step synthesis could take weeks to get right even if given the exact instructions by someone.
 
One of my professors shared that same LAH story with me recently while discussing a synthesis. I believe her family sued the school for quite a bit of money as well and one because she was never taught proper safety techniques prior to working with LAH. Its one thing to read instruction from PIHKAL and TIHKAL and another to actually carry out what's relatively briefly described. Each step in a synthesis is a potential point of screwing up. A five step synthesis could take weeks to get right even if given the exact instructions by someone.

It was t-butyl lithium, not LAH. Awesome stuff, if you squirt it in the air, it ignites and looks like a flame thrower. In her case, it sprayed on her clothes, and she was not wearing a flame-resistant lab coat.
 
It was t-butyl lithium, not LAH. Awesome stuff, if you squirt it in the air, it ignites and looks like a flame thrower. In her case, it sprayed on her clothes, and she was not wearing a flame-resistant lab coat.

You're right, I think he confused the two because the synth we were talking about used LAH. Still pretty prone to the same sort of thing what with spontaneously combusting when exposed to moisture in the air. Oddly in large crystal form LAH is relatively more stable. Weird side note, while researching the story another chemistry student at Yale was killed when her hair got caugh in a lathe in the machine shop they keep in the chemistry building for modifying instruments. Can never be too safe in the lab I suppose.
 
If you put a little time to learn the basics of chemistry or have taken a couple college chem classes, you will know enough to make the books enjoyable. If nothing else, the trip reports are interesting. I only took a few college chem courses, couldn't do anything more complex than a simple acid/base extraction drug wise, and still found them both entertaining.

Plus it makes you look super heady having those laying around. =D
 
Plus it makes you look super heady having those laying around. =D

Also some advise to anyone taking the field seriously, it is best NOT to have these books in your possession. All I have is college text books and chemistry problem guides and help books, along with a detailed catalog of my items and invoices. I also make lab journals for anything even just distilling water, if you are seriously into chemistry remember you may need to explain it to people who just see it as a drug lab. To be different is to be misunderstood and its your responsibility to go above and beyond. If you have a lab and have synthesis books you do not need to be doing the synthesis to be strongly suspected with evidence (the books) its called an "overt act" having a lab is one thing having a lab with the books shows intent shows conspiracy.

Just so everyone understands if you are doing chemistry outside of a regulated lab you must know about all of these laws as they do not tell you this stuff in undergrad, speaking from direct experience in both areas.
 
Or just don't get caught. It takes a year of Inorganic College Chemistry followed by at least a year of college level Organic Chemistry to understand PiHKAL and TiHKAL. Most people who actually make drugs for sale on the street don't even understand what they're doing. They're simply doing what they have been told to (that is, following a recipe they didn't write). Anyway, don't make drugs unless you're sure you won't get caught. Your freedom is more important. Ordering chemicals and glassware alone is enough to get you busted if you're unlucky.
 
^ exactly. Though it is important to note that even if you aren't doing anything wrong, even if you have everything well kept, odds are the people who come knocking didn't go to school for science. There is a strong chance because people don't understand chemistry they will seize your stuff and not give if back. That alone is terrifying as a good set up, even just a single glass piece can be 100s of dollars. It's unfortunate because if it were sports memorabilia or something and the police came knocking it would be a convocation piece but since people won't understand they will think its wrong.

Its all about just trying to keep your possessions. A lab is like a model train set, you start with one piece and before you know it you have 100 and it "looks bad" to those who don't get it. It would suck to have it stolen, especially some "one of a kind" pieces. There are some horror stories on amateur chemistry forums but believe it or not the US is not at all that strict yes we have a lot of list chemicals but most aren't that regulated and are commonly traded due to wide appeal but places like Australia will send police for a single boiling flask. Some places your suppose to register what your doing but most its just better to be prepared.
 
Don't think this person was setting up a lab. Was just asking how much chem they should know to enjoy the books. I agree, if I had a lab, I probably wouldn't have those books around. Though if you are doing anything illegal or grey and get raided, those books will be the least of your problems IMO.
 
Don't think this person was setting up a lab. Was just asking how much chem they should know to enjoy the books. I agree, if I had a lab, I probably wouldn't have those books around. Though if you are doing anything illegal or grey and get raided, those books will be the least of your problems IMO.

All I am really trying to say is you would be amazed at what counts as intent and conspiracy these days and in the age of the internet you dont really need hard copies ;) I would think just having the books in specific settings, without any glassware or intent of owing any, could cause unneeded trouble. You can go "but its freedom of knowledge" all you want but it doesnt stop you from having to get a lawyer and have them explain what you were doing with them to people who dont believe you.

Believe me I wish i could own hard copies as I enjoy his anecdotes and it takes a certain person to experiment with literal unknown compounds he made in a basement, a well equipped one but a basement none the less.

Also illegal and gray area are two different things and they often overlap and you can find things that occupy "legal, gray area, and illegal" all at the same time so if you are in to chemistry you gotta be slightly into law too believe me its not easy. When i was in university i was amazed at how many list chemicals we had in the lab, then once i made it a hobby i was surprised at how many list chemicals are in home depot because those "list and watched chemicals" are so loose and i promise you, you most likely have 1 in your house right now :)
 
Yeah I'd be much more concerned with my digital record than some books. Again though, simply having those books in your library if you have no intents on any lab work is of little to no risk IMO.
 
Yeah I'd be much more concerned with my digital record than some books. Again though, simply having those books in your library if you have no intents on any lab work is of little to no risk IMO.

This may be true and digital records are not really a concern depending on what your doing, plus as i eluded to you dont really need specific guides anyway plus a lot of his stuff is too direct and wouldnt be any use to most people. I am not trying to be "dont own the books" guy, i love alexander shlugin and really do wish i could buy the books for his comments. But its like having "secretes to methamphetamine synthesis" or something its just a wee bit unneeded. Personally I hold the belief of "whatever gets em into science is fine, provided its for the science not the outcome." but i feel that popularizing synthesis guides, regardless of the extra content, if slightly backwards for the acceptance of chemistry in the general population. If you find those books interesting for their content then surely something with repeatable experiments would be better?
 
Agree to disagree, but if you are actually afraid to own these when you have no intentions to do any chemistry at all and own no lab equipment, I don't get it. Half of the books are all narrative anyways. Plenty to read for anyone interested in these compounds. By your rationale, people shouldn't own any books about Ayahuasca for fear a pot and ladle could be used to make it.
 
It's not that you have the intent it's that, depending on how you find yourself down the road of life, those books might lead to questions as to why you have them. People will assume if you have a book you own it for knowledge or use, not for collection.

It would be a lie to say it's not a great reference for many things other then the exact synthesis found with in, as the whole point of science is to expand knowledge you can reference his reactions for your own nondrug related ones. I did not mean to offend but as this is a Googlable (wow that's a word on my tablet) it is important to offer a rounded explanation. It was not questioning your intent or ability to own the books but rather paint a picture of a less then understanding society.

By all means purchase them, I am sure somehow a fund or relative of his gets some money somewhere so please do. I just would hate for someone to not realize the implication of owning a book society will deem a synthesis guide. In a strange way we do agree as the books exist to own and as I said someone in a position to lose, or to be told why they bought them probably wouldn't have them :)
 
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