Harm Reduction How bad are brain zaps/what do they mean?

[Mycophile]

Since I'm not getting a response in the other thread I thought I'd start this one.

It's actually a copy of post/thread I put on reddit.

I only got one SINGLE brain zap a week ago while on Fluro-Phenibut, Klonopin and Lexapro (missed a day of Lexapro) and since I'm also in Kratom WD now and have an anxiety disorder, and read bad things about what they can mean, I started freaking out.

Here's my reddit post:

Hey guys,
So first off, I was wondering who here had tried the new fluro-phenibut and whether or not they think the dangers/safety level are similar to regular Phenibut HCL or FFA?

I've used the latter MANY times without any issues...at least none I'm AWARE of...
I wanted to know whether or not it has been prescribed by doctors in Russia like the other two have, because if so I'd think it was safer.
Now...
I have been taking Klonopin on an almost daily basis for about 13 years now with only 9 months off, and I know that's not good, and do sometimes worry about possible alzheimers or dementia, but the jury seems to still be in about whether or not they REALLY cause that.

I've been on Lexapro about 3 years and Prozac about 20 years before that.
I have only tried Fluro-Phenibut 3 times...and last week I had taken some while I also had Klonopin in my system but I had forgotten to take my Lexapro for only one day so I don't know if that was what caused my brain zap.
I mean I am sure that's what it was, cause I assume they are what they sound like..a sudden electrical "ZAP!" you feel that lasts like a milisecond but is quite unpleasant and odd.

I got them several times when I was in Prozac WD and switching to Lexapro, and I know that they are a common WD symptom.
But then I started reading about how mixture of GABA drugs and SSRIs can cause "permanent downregulation of GABA" and I don't even know what that is but it sounds scary.

What is that??

Then I read that they, and mixing too many benzos and SSRIs, can eventually lead to alzheimers, and got REALLY scared.
But this was just literally ONE single brain zap that lasted about a milisecond about 6 or 7 days ago when on F-Phenibut and Klonopin but when I'd missed a day of Lexapro.

Is that enough to be freaking out this much about it??

I should mention that I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and depression which is why I use these things and experiment, and have been in Kratom WD lately, so of course my brain is scattered.

I mean I like the F-Phenibut, so should I flush it down the toilet cause I had ONE SINGLE brain zap?
How likely is it someone who uses these kinds of drugs will really end up with alzheimers some day??

Sorry, I know no one really has an answer, but people can give there opinions.

I am going to quit Kratom soon, and I don't think the F-Phenibut I have will last more than 2 months or so, and probably won't buy more after that and go on a long break from all drugs other than my meds to try to get healthy.
Thanks

 

[Tranced]

Well I take Klonopin and Lexapro also, but I'm not withdrawing at all.

I will skip an ocassional dose of my Klonopin here or there, or cut my dose in half, as my dosage ranges from 1.0--2.0mgs a day but was told I could skip a day here and there, just not to COMPLETELY stop abrubtly, and the other night I just got ONE SINGLE brain zap while in bad that lasted like a milisecond.

I mean I'm assuming it was a brain zap, as I had them before here and there when in Prozac withdrawal.

It's just literally what it sounds like right??

Just a "ZAP!" like your brain switched a channel and feels uncomfortable but for literally less than half a second.

I am pretty sure I had taken my Klonopin that day and had been taking it regularly, but it was on a day I had forgotten to take my Lexapro.

The only other factor is that I had recently taken Fluro-Phenibut, the new type which I have recently been experimenting with and enjoying, but I've only done it 3 times so far, and I THINK I MIGHT have had some in my system, but I don't believe I was high on it at the time if I remember correctly...I may have come down hours earlier, but I also might have still been on some, not sure...

Since I've had more of those zaps than that before and was fine, and it was just once, this time I was not the last bit concerned, and that was about 5 or 6 days ago and it hasn't happened since.

So does that sound like a brain zap??

What do you think caused it/causes them??

And am I probably correct that just one or two that don't occur with muscle contractions while NOT withdrawing from anything is nothing to be concerned about right??

Yes, it is a brain zap. You described it perfectly - "switching channel" is exactly how I always describe it.

I'm unsure exactly what causes them, but they are certainly indicative of seizures and are frequently caused by benzos and SSRI's, as well as under normal circumstances when entering a sleep state. I've heard from doctors that they might be mini seizures... but either way it's relatively normal to get them infrequently. I get them when falling asleep sometimes. So yes, I'm sure you're fine. Most people experience them at some point. But try and remember your medication... missing the lexapro could have been a factor.

That said, if you're withdrawing from benzos and get them, especially in a recurring manner and/or accompanied by jerking movements (such as the OP was), then this is indicative of unusual seizure activity and unless you're very lucky, a seizure is almost certainly imminent.

I've had brain zaps/jerks last for more than the usual split second (I'm talking specifically about whilst in benzo withdrawal here), and often felt that had they went on any longer I would have had a full blown grand mal, as I have done numerous times when withdrawing from benzos. Either way, the seizures were always accompanied by brain zaps and twitching, usually on day three/four of discontinuing use.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

(sorry for the double post mods)

@ MP- Take a look at this article to get an idea of what generally causes brain zaps and you should be able to ask more specific questions about them and hopefully get some more responses.

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/1...s-treatments-for-electrical-shock-sensations/

 

[kleinerkiffer]

Yes, it is a brain zap. You described it perfectly - "switching channel" is exactly how I always describe it.

I'm unsure exactly what causes them, but they are certainly indicative of seizures and are frequently caused by benzos and SSRI's, as well as under normal circumstances when entering a sleep state. I've heard from doctors that they might be mini seizures... but either way it's relatively normal to get them infrequently. I get them when falling asleep sometimes. So yes, I'm sure you're fine. Most people experience them at some point. But try and remember your medication... missing the lexapro could have been a factor.

That said, if you're withdrawing from benzos and get them, especially in a recurring manner and/or accompanied by jerking movements (such as the OP was), then this is indicative of unusual seizure activity and unless you're very lucky, a seizure is almost certainly imminent.

I've had brain zaps/jerks last for more than the usual split second (I'm talking specifically about whilst in benzo withdrawal here), and often felt that had they went on any longer I would have had a full blown grand mal, as I have done numerous times when withdrawing from benzos. Either way, the seizures were always accompanied by brain zaps and twitching, usually on day three/four of discontinuing use.

Moved to his thread

 

[Tranced]

Moved to his thread

Cheers.

Since I'm not getting a response in the other thread I thought I'd start this one.

It's actually a copy of post/thread I put on reddit.

I only got one SINGLE brain zap a week ago while on Fluro-Phenibut, Klonopin and Lexapro (missed a day of Lexapro) and since I'm also in Kratom WD now and have an anxiety disorder, and read bad things about what they can mean, I started freaking out.

Here's my reddit post:

Hey guys,
So first off, I was wondering who here had tried the new fluro-phenibut and whether or not they think the dangers/safety level are similar to regular Phenibut HCL or FFA?

I've used the latter MANY times without any issues...at least none I'm AWARE of...
I wanted to know whether or not it has been prescribed by doctors in Russia like the other two have, because if so I'd think it was safer.
Now...
I have been taking Klonopin on an almost daily basis for about 13 years now with only 9 months off, and I know that's not good, and do sometimes worry about possible alzheimers or dementia, but the jury seems to still be in about whether or not they REALLY cause that.

I've been on Lexapro about 3 years and Prozac about 20 years before that.
I have only tried Fluro-Phenibut 3 times...and last week I had taken some while I also had Klonopin in my system but I had forgotten to take my Lexapro for only one day so I don't know if that was what caused my brain zap.
I mean I am sure that's what it was, cause I assume they are what they sound like..a sudden electrical "ZAP!" you feel that lasts like a milisecond but is quite unpleasant and odd.

I got them several times when I was in Prozac WD and switching to Lexapro, and I know that they are a common WD symptom.
But then I started reading about how mixture of GABA drugs and SSRIs can cause "permanent downregulation of GABA" and I don't even know what that is but it sounds scary.

What is that??

Then I read that they, and mixing too many benzos and SSRIs, can eventually lead to alzheimers, and got REALLY scared.
But this was just literally ONE single brain zap that lasted about a milisecond about 6 or 7 days ago when on F-Phenibut and Klonopin but when I'd missed a day of Lexapro.

Is that enough to be freaking out this much about it??

I should mention that I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and depression which is why I use these things and experiment, and have been in Kratom WD lately, so of course my brain is scattered.

I mean I like the F-Phenibut, so should I flush it down the toilet cause I had ONE SINGLE brain zap?
How likely is it someone who uses these kinds of drugs will really end up with alzheimers some day??

Sorry, I know no one really has an answer, but people can give there opinions.

I am going to quit Kratom soon, and I don't think the F-Phenibut I have will last more than 2 months or so, and probably won't buy more after that and go on a long break from all drugs other than my meds to try to get healthy.
Thanks

You're worrying about what happened too much. Brain zaps are certainly common when using SSRI's. One lone brain zap isn't indicative of much.

However, yes down-regulation of GABA is a problem, and if you're on SSRI's, benzos, opiates and also phenibut then that is a hefty combo. You do realise that phenibut withdrawals in themselves are pretty bad?

I take it that you are using these chemicals for depression/anxiety. Your brain is essentially going to adapt to the fact that you're on these drugs, so when you take them out of the equation, your brain will be quite unstable. This almost always causes worse anxiety than when people started taking them in the first place. Especially when you're on at least four different classes of drugs used for regulating anxiety/depression.

The only way out of this is to find natural methods to manage your anxiety/depression, hopefully starting now, and attempt/plan long term taper plans in order to avoid withdrawals.

To answer your primary concern, you might not be so much at risk of having a seizure now, but if you were to suddenly discontinue use you certainly would be.

 

[dicko89]

I get them on my venlafaxine XL if I miss 1 day or even a few hours as I take them at the same time every day ,it feels kind of like a quick electric shot suddenly in your head only for a split second mind but they are slightly annoying

 

[Mycophile]

Cheers.



You're worrying about what happened too much. Brain zaps are certainly common when using SSRI's. One lone brain zap isn't indicative of much.

However, yes down-regulation of GABA is a problem, and if you're on SSRI's, benzos, opiates and also phenibut then that is a hefty combo. You do realise that phenibut withdrawals in themselves are pretty bad?

I take it that you are using these chemicals for depression/anxiety. Your brain is essentially going to adapt to the fact that you're on these drugs, so when you take them out of the equation, your brain will be quite unstable. This almost always causes worse anxiety than when people started taking them in the first place. Especially when you're on at least four different classes of drugs used for regulating anxiety/depression.

The only way out of this is to find natural methods to manage your anxiety/depression, hopefully starting now, and attempt/plan long term taper plans in order to avoid withdrawals.

To answer your primary concern, you might not be so much at risk of having a seizure now, but if you were to suddenly discontinue use you certainly would be.

Ok I'm not worried about it now.

It was just one while falling asleep.

Also, I do not usually take Phenibut or F-Phenibut, just once or twice a week, sometimes less than that, and never allow myself more than 2 days a week and have never had WD.

I do take Kratom, but not every day, and plan on stopping for a long time in about a month.

Then it will just be my meds, Klonopin and Lexapro, which I'm not going to try to get off.

I was off Klonopin for 9 months and my anxiety was not worse than it used to be, pretty much the same as before.

I mean IF it was worse, I remember it having been that bad before, so I don't feel it was.

I am not sure I believe the accounts of it making EVERYONE's anxiety worse.

I mean I believe them, but I think that it is probably psychological due to getting used to relying on them, rather than chemical changes in the brain.

I know I need Klonopin, and without it it's very hard to live my life, so I'm not trying to get off it.

It hasn't even been fully proven benzos cause alzheimers, many people think they do and many think they don't.

But thanks cause you calmed me down.

 

[Tranced]

Ok I'm not worried about it now.

It was just one while falling asleep.

Also, I do not usually take Phenibut or F-Phenibut, just once or twice a week, sometimes less than that, and never allow myself more than 2 days a week and have never had WD.

I do take Kratom, but not every day, and plan on stopping for a long time in about a month.

Then it will just be my meds, Klonopin and Lexapro, which I'm not going to try to get off.

I was off Klonopin for 9 months and my anxiety was not worse than it used to be, pretty much the same as before.

I mean IF it was worse, I remember it having been that bad before, so I don't feel it was.

I am not sure I believe the accounts of it making EVERYONE's anxiety worse.

I mean I believe them, but I think that it is probably psychological due to getting used to relying on them, rather than chemical changes in the brain.

I know I need Klonopin, and without it it's very hard to live my life, so I'm not trying to get off it.

It hasn't even been fully proven benzos cause alzheimers, many people think they do and many think they don't.

But thanks cause you calmed me down.

I meant in the long term. I took benzos for nine months last year and I feel fine now (though a lot of people get worse withdrawals than I did, and to that I consider myself lucky). But if I'd taken them indefinitely, then eventually they would likely stop working, and I'd want to come off them. It is at that point after a life of benzos that a persons anxiety levels are going to most certainly be elevated. Your neurotransmitters will essentially see the benzodiazepine state as baseline. Remove them from the equation and it's all out of balance.

I'm glad it calmed you down though. Hopefully what I just said won't work you up again, but it just comes with the territory of using benzos I guess, and is worth baring in mind.

 

[Mycophile]

I meant in the long term. I took benzos for nine months last year and I feel fine now (though a lot of people get worse withdrawals than I did, and to that I consider myself lucky). But if I'd taken them indefinitely, then eventually they would likely stop working, and I'd want to come off them. It is at that point after a life of benzos that a persons anxiety levels are going to most certainly be elevated. Your neurotransmitters will essentially see the benzodiazepine state as baseline. Remove them from the equation and it's all out of balance.

I'm glad it calmed you down though. Hopefully what I just said won't work you up again, but it just comes with the territory of using benzos I guess, and is worth baring in mind.

No you didn't worry me, but I still am not sure it's proven benzo's cause CHEMICAL changes to worsen anxiety.

I mean I am concerned about whether or not i can ever get off them, whether or not what you are saying is true and whether or not they MIGHT cause alzheimers, but I need to live my life and not worry about my social interactions, and I can't live normally without Klonopin.

i have taken them for over a decade, and I don't like it, but it's just necessary for me, and they have never stopped working, nor have I have needed a larger dose than I started with, nor did I have any WD when I did stop for 9 months, just a return of anxiety I couldn't deal with.

I do agree you feel the state on them is baseline, but I think it's psychological not chemical.

If I don't take them my social anxiety is very hard to handle, just as hard as it was before I got on them, not necessarily worse, but equally unbearable.

I'd like to get off them eventually, but I'm not going to try to stop them just in case MAYBE they make my anxiety worse SOMEDAY, when I know that if I stop right now I will be worrying about every social interaction I have.

It's just not worth it to try to stop for me.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Supposedly it has been confirmed that brain zaps are a peripheral nerve (cranial nerve) parasthesia, and EEG has ruled out that there is any epileptic activity of the brain itself during brain zaps.

They often occur with movement of the head/eyes because of the involvement of the cranial nerves.

 

[mostly-human]

My wife works in mental health, and was previously on SSRIs and then SNRIs, I just started on an SNRI (first time anti-depressant) - and she warned me of the brain zaps, but said don't worry - they're OK, they just feel *wrong*.

I'm also on methadone, so I am a little worried about at some point in the future having to withdraw from both, but, such is life I guess.

 

[flowersonfire]

brain zaps and seratonin

I used to get bad brain zaps when discontinuing Cymbalta. My psychiatrist told me that one reason for experiencing the brain zaps is when you're seratonin levels are trying to balance out. Feels somewhat 'electrical" to me, a strange feeling for sure! The good news is that I was assured it's nothing to worry about! :D

 

[flowersonfire]

brain zaps and serotonin

I used to get bad brain zaps when discontinuing Cymbalta. My psychiatrist told me that one reason for experiencing the brain zaps is when you're serotonin levels are trying to balance out. Feels somewhat 'electrical" to me, a strange feeling for sure! The good news is that I was assured it's nothing to worry about! :D

 

[RaoulDuke1147]

My guess would be that it was indeed caused by you not taking your dose of Lexapro. According to Wikipedia the brain zaps are caused by antidepressant discontinuation syndrome and they occur in people who have been on antidepressants for longer than four weeks and they abruptly stop taking them. I would just make sure that you don't miss your dose of Lexapro and it shouldn't happen again so don't go and flush your drugs down the toilet man, that's just a waste of perfectly good drugs.