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Heroin to Subutex = worst wd ?!?!?

zephyrhigh

zephyrhigh

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Joined
Dec 31, 2014
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Okay so my boyfriend took a Subutex this am to try and substitute for not having heroin this am. It threw him into total severe withdrawals. Finally got a few bags did one and made him feel worse. Anyway to make this stop?!
 
Wait. What you're describing is precipitated withdrawal. It happens when you don't wait long enough between H and subs.
 
Yes, subutex is a 'protagonist ' as well as a partial 'antagonist'. In English this means in practice that if you're experiencing withdrawal symptoms it provides relief and makes you feel better. However, if you're not yet completely in the throes of withdrawal then taking subutex acts like Naxloxone and instantly throws you in the midst of the worst withdrawal youve ever experienced. It's like withdrawal x10... all the symptoms are compressed into one instantaneous experience. It's terrible.
You need to wait at least 16-24 hours or until you're in the full throes of withdrawal before taking subutex.
Subutex also has a longer half life (36 hours) than heroin and arguably is harder to come off.
Your boyfriend had no choice but to take more heroin. It was the only way he could feel better. Next time he needs to wait longer before taking subutex.
 
Does anyone know why bupe-induced withdrawal is so intense? Since buprenorphine hits like 75 % of the receptors heroin hits, one should at least be 75 % fine, with a 25 % withdrawal.

I don't get it.

juansalar said:
Yes, subutex is a 'protagonist ' as well as a partial 'antagonist'. In English this means in practice that if you're experiencing withdrawal symptoms it provides relief and makes you feel better. However, if you're not yet completely in the throes of withdrawal then taking subutex acts like Naxloxone and instantly throws you in the midst of the worst withdrawal youve ever experienced. It's like withdrawal x10... all the symptoms are compressed into one instantaneous experience. It's terrible.
You need to wait at least 16-24 hours or until you're in the full throes of withdrawal before taking subutex.
Subutex also has a longer half life (36 hours) than heroin and arguably is harder to come off.
Your boyfriend had no choice but to take more heroin. It was the only way he could feel better. Next time he needs to wait longer before taking subutex.
Click to expand...
 
Hi
My post tried to explain this...
I believe the % of receptors buprenorphine fixes to is largely an irrelevance, rather it's the way it precipitates a full-on immediate withdrawal state when the body still has opiates attached to the receptors. On taking the drug it is so strongly attracted to the receptors that it forcibly 'rips' the remaining opiates from the receptors in its rush to replace the opiates on the receptors. This accounts for the intensity of the withdrawal symptoms. To visualise it imagine the process of withdrawal normally consisting of opiates gradually being leached away from the receptors over time: a period of 24 to 72 hours from the last hit, with peak withdrawal symptoms experienced when all the opiates have left the receptors 3-4 days after the last hit. Recovery from the symptoms is achieved when the receptors begin to work normally in the absence of any opiates.
Now imagine the process of withdrawal is underway - say we are at a point 12 hours in to the withdrawal and there are still some opiates attached to receptors. Now if you take subutex at this point all remaining opiates are ripped away from the receptors and in place of a gradual leaching away, there's a sudden shock when all the withdrawal symptoms experienced over the remaining 60 hours are immediately condensed into one immediate rush as the brute force of subutex replaces the opiates in one move. This explains the intensity of the withdrawal symptoms. However, although withdrawal symptoms are experienced in one intense hit, the period of experiencing withdrawal symptoms is reduced as the subutex attaches to the receptors and the body doesn't have to wait for the receptors to switch back on to experience relief. In a nutshell this is why 'bupe-induced' is much more intense but doesn't last as long.
I hope this explanation satisfies.
NB as you probably know your boyfriend is back at square one and has to go through the full experience again.
 
PWDs are really intense as you basically go from 0 - 60 vis a vis heroin wds, pretty grim
how long did your bf wait til after is last heroin dose to take the subs? ༼ ༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ༽
 
zephyrhigh said:
Okay so my boyfriend took a Subutex this am to try and substitute for not having heroin this am. It threw him into total severe withdrawals. Finally got a few bags did one and made him feel worse. Anyway to make this stop?!
Click to expand...

If you keep taking heroin it will get better. It only goes bad "one way" which is heroin first. But if you get into PWD with suboxone, you *can* take enough heroin to eventually feel OK again. Although, when I've done this I've had to take pretty ridiculous amounts of heroin and it only just made me not feel like I was dying any more :/

Otherwise - just wait it out - not much else for it really.
 
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