HCG and bad water retention/swelling during TRT

blue comet

blue comet

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
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I've been on TRT for a while now. I have tried all types of remedies, from just testosterone cypionate to HCG monotherapy, etc. before discovering my sweet spot of 200mg test cyp per week, 500iu HCG per week (all in one shot), and .25mg arimidex.

About a year ago, I began getting real BAD water retention and swelling whenever I took my HCG shot. I had moon face and my nipples puffed out to look like small boobs. My stomach also got very flabby with water. I tried lowering the dose of HCG to 250iu, 125 iu, and 50iu, and still had the same issue.

So for a while now I've been on only test cyp and arimidex. It works OK but is lacking in a lot of areas, mainly my sex drive and appetite. The HCG was great with boosting that but I can't take it because of the swelling.

I have absolutely no idea why this started. I have taken 2500iu HCG 3x per week on mono therapy and never had swelling. In fact I had the opposite; it kept me lean and trim and thin.

What can I do to attempt to stop this side effect? Why did this randomly start?
 
I've no idea why that happened either, sounds very unhealthy. Are you taking this under the auspices of an endocrinologist? Are you sure your HCG was legit? Have you tried dropping the test and seeing how you respond to HCG alone? Have you had a full hormonal panel to see what's going on?

You're on a high dose of test for TRT and adding in HCG long-term may not be the best thing.
 
Yes, I have been seeing an endocrinologist for years. This is prescribed HCG.

I have gotten blood work several times over the past year and everything comes in a normal range everytime. Usually with taking 200mg test cyp and .25mg arimidex its put my test at around 700-800 and my E2 at around 30. I've tried to lower the E2 but get bad side effects when I take anything above .25mg arimidex, mainly severe cognitive impairment. Everything else on the blood work (prolactin, SHBG, GH, etc) is always in normal range.

You think my test is high? Isn't 200mg once per week somewhat of a common dose? Anything less is too little for me.
 
Not common, no. Many guys would be ecstatic to get 200mg/wk prescribed. Some get as little as 250mg per month. Having said that, most would experience far higher serum total test from that dose than you do, particularly as you're also getting HCG.

How long do your bloating/gyno symptoms last after a shot?
 
Allow me to clarify that those bloodwork figures have been when I have been taking test cyp and arimidex only. I have not been taking HCG.

When I take an HCG shot, no matter how small (even as low as 50iu), my nipples and chest are usually the site of the first noticable swelling, almost right away (within an hour). A few hours later or the following morning I'll notice it in my stomach and face. If I don't take another shot, it'll take about 1-2 weeks to go away (if I remember correctly).
 
Hey CFC, have you ever heard of issues with POMC? I've been trying to help Blue for quite some time and he's quite the medical mystery, he had a very bad reaction to gabapentin and has had a lot of these issues ever since (though he had a severe testosterone deficiency before any drugs). I know the GABA-B/Gabapentin thing is debated but one of the studies showed that gabapentin may bind to a particular GABA-B subtype in melanotrophs (pituitary cells) that regulate POMC, and a POMC deficit seems to fit a lot of his symptoms but I don't know.... Even without gabapentin having direct GABA-B agonism there could be effects on GABA-B via modulation of GABA synthesis (It's more well recognized mechanism of action). I also wonder why he originally had such severe testosterone deficiency before he was ever on any meds..

I can't but wonder if there is some sort of hormone converting enzyme issue here or something going on with the cells in the pituitary.
 
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Without knowing anything about his medical history, I'm at a loss really Cotcha. Unfortunately I'm also away now for a couple of weeks with no laptop so won't be able to do any reading or research. However the first thing that sprung to mind was a Cushing's type condition, though without knowing anything about Blue that's just reaching. hCG can elevate cortisol, moreso in the presence of ACTH. And incidentally (or perhaps not) ACTH is synthesised in the pituitary from POMC. The speed of his reaction to hCG is more typical of an allergy (histamine) though.
 
I am going to start up HCG again into my hormone replacement therapy routine, as well as arimidex.

Plan right now is to take 250iu HCG and 25mg arimidex on wednesdays, then 200mg testosterone cypionate on thursdays. I also will be taking 5mg cialis daily.

For the past 8 months I've just taken solely testosterone cypionate. A few months ago I added the daily cialis. This works pretty well in term of energy and well being but it hasn't improved my sex drive the way I wanted it to. It caused testicular atrophy and my sex drive was somewhat weak, nowhere near how great it was when I was taking HCG. I'm also having issues with my sex drive because of tramadol and am looking to fix it.

I'm hoping the water retention issue is no longer a problem but knowing my luck it'll still be around.
 
blue comet said:
I am going to start up HCG again into my hormone replacement therapy routine, as well as arimidex.

Plan right now is to take 250iu HCG and 25mg arimidex on wednesdays, then 200mg testosterone cypionate on thursdays. I also will be taking 5mg cialis daily.

For the past 8 months I've just taken solely testosterone cypionate. A few months ago I added the daily cialis. This works pretty well in term of energy and well being but it hasn't improved my sex drive the way I wanted it to. It caused testicular atrophy and my sex drive was somewhat weak, nowhere near how great it was when I was taking HCG. I'm also having issues with my sex drive because of tramadol and am looking to fix it.

I'm hoping the water retention issue is no longer a problem but knowing my luck it'll still be around.
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Interesting issues, don't really have a theory as to what is going on in your case unfortunately.. Although I do have a few relevant questions that I'd like to throw open, maybe CFC, Pharmbiak or others could chip in...

At what point does adding exogenous testosterone effect the bodies natural production of upstream hormones such as DHEA, Pregnenolone, Androstenedione etc..

I've heard others state addition of DHEA(-S), and/or Pregnenolone daily contributed to better mood, increased energy, and libido, could this work in your case..?

If taking hCG previously caused negative side effects, you could logically assume it would again..!!

Why the tramadol? could it be discontinued..?

I have read daily use of Tadalafil caused serious side effects over the longer term (unsure if cialis causes similar), I don't believe cialis improves libido as such, just vasodilates tissue after initial stimulus has being initiated...

Maybe if test-C is injected with a lower dose more frequently it may negate the need for arimidex, and contribute to a more healthy hormonal balance...!!
 
Genetic Freak said:
I've heard others state addition of DHEA(-S), and/or Pregnenolone daily contributed to better mood, increased energy, and libido, could this work in your case..?
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They're the more neuroactive steroids, and supplementing does seem to help some mostly in terms of mood and libido. Never noticed anything myself. hCG elevates them too and is probably why it makes some hornier and happier.

Cialis is just a brand name of tadalafil mate, and you're right there are some potential negative sides, and it won't do anything for libido.
 
CFC said:
They're the more neuroactive steroids, and supplementing does seem to help some mostly in terms of mood and libido. Never noticed anything myself. hCG elevates them too and is probably why it makes some hornier and happier.

Cialis is just a brand name of tadalafil mate, and you're right there are some potential negative sides, and it won't do anything for libido.
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Ooooops.... Sorry jet-lagged retard..!! ;)

Regarding Pregnenolone, from what I can find ACTH, FSH, LH seem to regulate synthesis, mainly in adrenal gland, but also liver, skin, hippocampus, testes, and retina..
Could we assume when on a long suppressive cycle, or many years of cruise blast where blood FSH and LH are negligible, this synthesis will not take place, or are there several pathways of which allow the body to compensate...

I assume downstream synthesis from cholesterol isn't stopped completely by administering exogenous testosterone..?

Or am I incorrect..?
 
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Any ideas on why Blue presented a long time ago with such severe testosterone deficiency? (As far I can tell that was his original issue).

Might there have been long term adaptations from that testosterone deficit?
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Any ideas on why Blue presented a long time ago with such severe testosterone deficiency? (As far I can tell that was his original issue).

Might there have been long term adaptations from that testosterone deficit?
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His original issue was water retention from hCG? There could be any number of reasons for a test deficiency, an endo with access to his medical history would be best placed to discuss that with him.
 
Genetic Freak said:
Ooooops.... Sorry jet-lagged retard..!! ;)

Regarding Pregnenolone, from what I can find ACTH, FSH, LH seem to regulate synthesis, mainly in adrenal gland, but also liver, skin, hippocampus, testes, and retina..
Could we assume when on a long suppressive cycle, or many years of cruise blast where blood FSH and LH are negligible, this synthesis will not take place, or are there several pathways of which allow the body to compensate...

I assume downstream synthesis from cholesterol isn't stopped completely by administering exogenous testosterone..?

Or am I incorrect..?
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There are several organs that synthesise a whole gamut of these hormones (eg adrenals). Also testosterone is the substrate for many, so simply suppressing endogenous production shouldn't have much impact on their conversion.
 
CFC said:
His original issue was water retention from hCG? There could be any number of reasons for a test deficiency, an endo with access to his medical history would be best placed to discuss that with him.
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Sorry to be confusing - I've had other conversations with blue and his background is essentially he presented with an apparently idiopathic testosterone deficiency and then started HRT, and after a bad gabapentin reaction and protracted issues from it is now having the water retention issues (among other issues).

But I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the "idiopathic" testosterone deficiency and whether people with these sorts of random testosterone defiencies present with higher rates mental illness/cognitive issues that may not be related to testosterone dysregulation itself (maybe the same dysfunction that caused his testosterone defiency is causing some mental issues by a non-hormonal mechanism?). I believe blue is around 30 years old. Sorry to be confusing XD

I understand if this is all a crapshoot, thanks for reading.
 
^^ no idea really mate, sorry. There's undoubtedly a relationship between hypogonadism and mental health, but why it happened and why he's had poor reactions to other drugs is anyone's guess. It does sound like he has a lot of problems, so I do hope he's found a doctor who's helping him.
 
I can't for the life of me figure out why this issue with HCG started when I stopped gabapentin.

Gabapentin caused some sort of problem with my brain. Because aside from this, I've had a host of severe physical and psychological issues that were also not present prior to taking gabapentin.

The only thing I don't know is what gabapentin did.

Anyway, the HCG caused the water retention again, although slightly less around my chest (but the same amount in my face). It improved testicular atrophy and erections. I'm guessing that the water retention will continue to get worse if I continue taking it weekly.
 
HCG dosage is off the wall. Way to much.. you need very little and from a bodybuilding perspective should be taken (small amounts) everyday.
 
What dosage do you suggest?

I have taken smaller amounts (even as low as 50iu) which have provided none of the ideal benefits but still all of the side effects I was suffering. I also worry that daily dosing will result in higher E2, regardless of how low the dose.
 
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