Exogenous Ketones and Stimulants/Ketamine - Magic?

[cryptix420]

Hi there,

I'm sure most of you have heard about ketones in one form or another, for this forum's discussion I'm referring to exogenous ketones - namely beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB). From my extremely limited understanding, BHB is a natural metabolic by-product of fat metabolism in the liver, which is sort of the whole goal of the 'keto diet.'

Anyway, here's an excerpt I stole from hvmn.com -

"When BHB enters the mitochondria of the cell, it?s converted to acetoacetate, after which it undergoes a reaction where CoA is added. The result is acetoacetyl-CoA, which is cleaved to form acetone and acetyl-CoA.

The acetyl-CoA progresses into the Krebs cycle and results in the production of ATP, which as you know, is the energy needed for the cellular functions.9

Ketones are clean-burning because they reduce the production of potentially harmful reactive oxygen species (ROS) inside cells. They?re also able to scavenge (clean up) ROS produced by other metabolic processes."

I am also fairly certain in my elementary understanding of all this that when the body utilizes ketones for energy, glucose (and thus glycogen - essentially glucose stored in the muscles) is massively spared. Meaning, less muscle break down, and exceptional blood sugar regulation, as well as less cravings for carbohydrates and sugary stuff.

Now this is all cool when talking about health, but I'm specifically interested in talking about it in relation to drugs like amphetamines and ketamine. As we all know, eating on either substance can be a bit of a challenge, and even when accomplished, it's tricky to say how much something like amphetamine interferes with proper digestion/assimilation of food and nutrients. I'm wondering if consuming exogenous ketones like BHB is an easy way to provide the brain and body with its heightened need for energy during the usage of said substances (and avoiding that gaunt, 'wasting away' look)

I also rather love swimming laps while on some good speed and a small bump of K, and I've noticed endurance that honestly outright shocks me. It's an incredibly joyous feeling, to be honest. I feel exhilarated beyond belief after one of these swim sessions, and don't feel tiredness or 'used-up-ness' at all. It feels like I am thriving. I have even noticed significant muscle gains and increase in muscle definition, as well as an overall increase in strength, muscle definition, and sense of confidence and well-being since embarking on these BHB/amp/K experiments. (Don't get me wrong though, I still eat oatmeal, good meats, grains, dairy, fruit, veggies, you know all that. I'm not saying BHB is the sole contributor - just want to be clear.)

I know this is all rather unorthodox, so to speak, but I am quite curious to hear the thoughts of my fellow intelligent bluelighters.


Much Love

 

[Hexagon Sun]

Maybe I will try this experiment some days the next spring/summer. My problem with amp is that I can no longer sleep for a good 14-24h even with the slightly amount, so interference with sleeps is no good for muscle/definition as you know.

What amounts of amp do you use? What timeframes?

 

[perpetualdawn]

From what I read, consuming exogenous ketones shuts down your body's consumption of endogenous fats. Maybe this is keeping you from getting overly gaunt by preserving your bodyfat, forcing your body to use all the last scraps of glycogen and burning protein for energy.

Interesting combo. Certainly unorthodox and experimental. How often do you do this? What kind of workout (distance/time-wise)? How much K and amph?

 

[dopamimetic]

Low-dose K certainly gives me a huge boost in endurance, yet might it be all just due to its antinociceptive effects that blend nicely with psychostimulants ... and, not being the most sportive individual around, I've gone too far on such combo more than once.

At first I thought BHB'd be meant to be psychoactive, having its own receptors, kinda like GHB etc.. but it's just about it as an energy source, right? Just then why is it said to be the major component in ketogenic diet, which is anti-epileptic? Maybe it is sort of psychoactive?

 

[cryptix420]

Sleeping after amphetamines can definitely be tricky, especially considering their long half-life. There's a few things that can help immensely though. Find a high quality magnesium oil/gel to apply topically - this is the best way [imo] to get magnesium into your body. Oral supplements, even highly recommended ones like magnesium chelate or magnesium l-threonate do not work nearly as well as topical application (from what I've read and experienced).

And not to get too hippy-dippy, but there is this epic Ayurvedic technique called abhyanga [self-massage] where you basically melt some coconut oil (or whichever oil nourishes your dosha the best), get naked, lay down a towel, and proceed to dip your hand in the oil and rub yourself from head to toe. Slowly, methodically, behind the ears, earlobes, with the nails in the hair, the face, shoulders, armpits, chest, bellybutton, hips, butt, yes the butthole, genitals, thighs, calves, and feet...yes the feet, massaging the big toe and oiling the nail, the soles, in betweens, everywhere.

The idea is that your body absorbs oil just as if you were drinking water. Just sit there rubbing and massaging and oiling yourself, and it is seriously such an amazing experience. Spend at least 20 minutes doing it ideally. Ayurveda states that this technique even enhances muscle definition. It brings skin to life in the best way, and makes it so resilient - especially for those in dry climates.

But, the nervous system is very close to the skin. Oil gives this membrane of protection and soothing comfort, nourishment. It makes sleep so good. It's nice to take a shower when the abhyanga is completed, and take care to use the right towels so you don't ruin them with oil.

Side note, I first applied magnesium gel all over my body (the stuff that they source from the Zechstein seabed) in copious amounts, and then did the abhyanga - perhaps it's akin to liposomal magnesium delivery. It definitely seemed to penetrate.

Anyway, as far as the dose goes, gosh who knows. I just get a little 1/2g baggie of amphetamine, and put a small key bump in my mouth. I know eyeballing isn't the most Einstein thing ever, but I've got a pretty good math mind and seem to do alright with it. I definitely try not to take any after 3 or 4 at the absolute latest, and have some herbs on hand that are super helpful in case I just can't sleep. Gaia Herbs is a phenomenal company for herbal medicine in the US, they have one called 'Sound Sleep' that's got Kava, Valerian, Passionflower, Vervain, Skullcap, and California Poppy in a gelly liquid capsule..i pop them open in my mouth (Ayurvedically speaking, tasting something immensely helps the body with absorbing it) and ya.


I try not to take more than 60-70mg of K before swimming, otherwise I have a harder time staying straight in the lane and remembering what all my limbs are supposed to be doing..but at the same time, it's sort of an exciting challenge. What with ketamine's neuro-regenerative properties, I'm just there thinking of nothing but how lovely the saltwater feels, breathing in and out, and just being and feeling human. There's really something about it that's quite delightful.

Finding the optimum dose of speed is key though, because I don't wan't to take so much that I can't stand the heat of the sauna or hot tub, and way overdo the swimming like some mechanical robot. I have generally found that with amphetamine, less is more. I strongly prefer it to adderall. I don't know the exact difference, but I like that amphetamine is much 'weaker' in a sense. It's much more gentle, but still sure as shit gets the job done.

BHB and ketones sure are some interesting stuff. They just...make me feel better. I can function more effectively. I'm not sure if I'll use them long term.. probably not much, once I finally have my partner's cooking again (which will be soon). Who knows

Godspeed