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Entheogenic purging and Ondansetron (Zofran)

R

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Jul 19, 2013
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Many people identify the purging (aggressive vomiting and/or defecation) process induced by entheogens like ayahuasca or mescaline-containing cacti as a vital and beneficial component in the healing experience. It is viewed as the symbolic, and sometimes literal, the expulsion of bad things from your body. This process is generally not considered pleasant, however, and may prevent some from engaging with the experience. Thus, I have pondered interventions to mitigate this experience.

Ondansetron is an anti-emetic often prescribed for nausea which accompanies chemo-therapy for cancer patients. It's a 5HT3 receptor antagonist, meaning it blocks chemicals from binding to specific serotonin receptors particularly the sub-type involved with vomiting. It is very effective at eliminating nausea and preventing vomiting and I have successfully used it for MDMA nausea, as well as spot-treatment for other times of sickness. Based on a cursory glance at the neuroscience and a look at user experience reports, it seems (to an admitted non-professional) that ondansetron only affects nausea and does nothing to affect any other aspect of the experiences produced by entheogenic substances.

My question is this: Would it be misguided to use ondansetron to prevent the physical purging effects of entheogens like ayahuasca or psychedelic cacti? Would it eliminate an essential component to spiritual growth involved in these ceremonies? Are there chemical interactions that may attenuate the overall experience?

Be they based in neuroscience, spiritual perspective, or personal experience, all opinions are welcomed. Please share, and thank you for doing so.

Godspeed to you,

RF <3
 
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You'd be indisputably missing out on some aspect of the experience, but also adding other qualities. Consider that if you endeavour to avoid the experience of purging while on a psychedelic, you will instead experience having full control over your gut on a psychedelic, which could lend itself to 'spiritual growth' in its own right.

That said, I'm not sure what effects 5-HT3 mediates other than nausea. There could be other effects that you would omit, which could make the experience more or less beneficial. It's hard to say without doing both side by side to compare, which begs the question, why not try both?
 
Many people seem to have some kind of romanticized notion of purging = catharsis. Sure, it is cathartic to purge. And to do so in an intense psychedelic state even more so. Is it mandatory to get all the shit out of your system? Not at all. Can it help in some occasions to do that? Yes definitely. As Moxious says, trying both is probably a good thing. I lean towards the zofran version or you could look into moclobemide instead of the "natural" maoi's that makes you puke. Even the cathartic element of the experience itself (getting shit out) is not the main part as I see it. The end goal IMO is to recognize awareness itself throughout the experience (which doesn't mean not going full throttle with all the different elements of catharsis, visual displays ect.)
 
Placebo is a powerful thing - mind over matter! Especially with psychedelics. Believing in something, especially if its in the background of your mind but you dont really want to think about it, can manifest itself as reality in one way or the other.

That said Ondansetron effectively blocks nausea with Mescaline without affecting the spiritual, mental and visual part of the trip but I prefer not to use it, unless necessary (mostly when being in public).
 
A bit off topic but got a guy drunk on water we told him it was vodka
Indeed mind over matter
 
BehindtheShadow said:
A bit off topic but got a guy drunk on water we told him it was vodka
Indeed mind over matter
Click to expand...

A lot of people dont believe me when I tell this story, but once I have burnt my arm by touching an ice cold metal when being mesmerized by red hot glowing coals in a fire - I accidentally touched the metal tool standing nearby which was very cold due to the weather and immediately thought that I had touched a glowing hot metal instead - the burn was small but it was real. Ever since I am a firm believer. :)

Sorry for the off-topic as well!.. 8)
 
No that's cool because as I say saw it with my own eyes a guy getting drunk on water.
We put it in a vodka bottle and poured it like a mix and he got wasted
 
If you allow me to add more off topic:

Shulgin began studying organic chemistry as a Harvard University scholarship student at the age of 16. In 1943 he dropped out of school to join the U.S. Navy. While serving on USS Pope in the Navy during World War II, Shulgin was given a glass of orange juice by a nurse prior to surgery for a thumb infection. Shulgin drank the juice and, assuming that the powder at the bottom of the glass was a sedative, fell asleep rapidly. Upon waking he learned that the powder was undissolved sugar. The experience made him aware of the influence of placebos over the human mind.[7][8]
 
Basically it comes down to this: Do you consider yourself "spiritual"? Do you consider "rituals" and "ceremonies" important? If so, the purging might be a valuable part of the psychedelic experience.

Otherwise you can probably disregard the claim that vomiting is necessary for "personal growth", whether it is about an ayahuasca ceremony or a dudebro fraternity hazing.
 
My biggest concern for someone doing this would be that instead of curing the nausea, you keep it at a low growl through the whole experience. These drugs are not magic bullets that can completely eliminate nausea, particularly not the powerful kinds that can come with ayahuasca and others like it. On the side of purging, generally any stomach issues go away after you vomit. By trying to keep that at bay you may end up with an irritating nausea through the entire duration that could detract from your experience.
 
Trabbamab said:
My biggest concern for someone doing this would be that instead of curing the nausea, you keep it at a low growl through the whole experience. These drugs are not magic bullets that can completely eliminate nausea, particularly not the powerful kinds that can come with ayahuasca and others like it. On the side of purging, generally any stomach issues go away after you vomit. By trying to keep that at bay you may end up with an irritating nausea through the entire duration that could detract from your experience.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for with ayahuasca but dxm categoriclaly made me puke every time I took it, but ondansetron really was a 'magic bullet'. Every time I take it my stomach feels like a rock. And keeping everything down I think got more of the dose into me which got me to a deeper level of the trip.

The only caveat i would add and it's completely anecdotal is that I find myself more sensitive to psychedelics making me puke nowadays, not sure if it has anything to do with having taken ondansetron a few times but it was nothing I'd consider excessive, total of 6-10 times maybe.
 
As someone who has a pretty weak stomach and psychedelics often make me puke, I don't buy into any of that purging-catharsis stuff (I agree that it is hugely romanticized), I was surprised I never heard of this. Doing some very quick research, be warned: https://ask.metafilter.com/265353/Why-isnt-Zofran-OTC

Seems like it can have some nasty side effects, including death.
 
Zofran is quite a benign stuff... I can say though you will still feel like you want to throw up if you have something toxic in your stomach yet it will be harder to throw it up without sticking your finger down your throat, which I experienced with noro virus.

At most I might get a minor headache from it. I am curious how it would interact with psychedelics
 
Yeah, agreed about ondansetron. It is VERY effective stuff. They don't like prescribing it much because its so shockingly, criminally expensive for a healthcare system to buy it (according to my most recent edition of the BNF, its something like ?80 something for 10 tablets, or something ridiculous like that). And its usually used either pre-surgery where vomiting would be dangerous, such as on an intubated patient or for cancer patients on the nastier, more emetogenic chemo regimes, but after being shot up with it in hospital
after GI issues landed me in there and it taking me from being curled up in the foetal position, spewing a mixture of bile and lurid, highlighter-pen color green, acidic foam like a flamethrower belching forth napalm if it had a bastard-child with the movie 'the exorcist' every minute or two to sat upright, feeling alright again, reading a copy of PIHKAL or TIHKAL (I forget which) in as little time as it took to absorb the IM shot.

Since then, after a fair bit of trying, I managed to blag a repeat script for tablets (which if I can't swallow the things, I'll dissolve and plug, that has even been effective enough, fast enough to turn an alcohol hangover-induced barf-fest to a defused event from its going up the ass to mid-mad-dash to the bog before I even got to the shitter). Especially plugged, it is effective in the extreme, and plugged its also pretty damn quick too. A mixture of ondansetron and cyclizine, plugged has been able to deal with the very worst vomiting and/or nausea I have ever experienced whilst having access to those meds.

The ondanstron alone is near enough a nuclear button for taking out the nastiest nausea and puking you are ever likely to come up against. I can't comment about chemo since I've never had cancer and hope never to, whilst in all other respects seeming pretty mild. I've used it to pre-medicate against nausea or vomiting, such as with 1p-LSD, one I find to be rather a gutbuster, BK-2C-B or a mixture of the two, and its very effective. Smoking weed, or as long as one is careful as appropriate with them, a synthetic cannabinoid can also be of great help for stomach aggro. Of course, smoking weed will change the experience. Ondansetron didn't seem to do so in any negative way.

(as far as weed goes then just because it changes the experience, it doesn't mean that the change has to be for the worse.
 
I actually sometimes will wipe the viewing off with alcohol then filter with a sterilfilt to inject when I want the nausea gone fast. It can take an hour to work orally as it did this morning. Plus I don't like taking 8 mg as it's not good to become dependent on it as it affects digestion, which is hard to notice
 
Well yeah, obviously its not good to take other than on an as-needed basis. But you aren't going to become dependent using it for a day. I've plenty of times used 24-32mg over a day and for a few days. (both for tripping induced nausea treatment and prevention, and because of my GI issues.
 
I've definitely used high doses it's more the ongoing use that becomes the problem I would think. I've never noticed any mental effects from it
 
Precisely. A high dosing over a day or two of ondansetron isn't going to cause that sort of 'rebound' hyperemesis type reaction. That would occur from receptor desensitization and downregulation due to prolonged use rather than periodic use of high doses.

I've got a lot of experience with the stuff, including high dose use, as I have a script for it. I don't take it daily but rather, high doses when either a problem presents itself or when premedicating against likely nausea or potential nausea, I'd probably not leave it unused when I have access to the drug.
 
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