empathogenic or entactogenic? also MDMA's mode of action

[Dr.ροζαγόρι]

I read that the term 'entactogenic' was designed for MDMA and early derivatives...

the drug class ‘entactogen’ was coined to classify MDMA, MBDB (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methyl-ethylphenylethylamine), MDA (3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine) and MDAI (5,6-methylenedioxy-2-amino-indane), based on early psychiatric use, animal behavioural and human subjective effects, as well as for its departure from the classical SAR (Structure-Activity Relationship) of hallucinogens (Nichols, 1986)."

as 'empathogenic' had the 'pathos' (=disease) 'wrong connotation'. While the term “entactogen,” from the Greek: that which “produces a touching within” (en = within, tactus = touch, gen = to produce, would do better, but wasn't as catchy.

Also I wonder if anyone is interested in the mechanism of action of MDMA, as it hasn't been well described yet.
what you reckon you reckon about this paper: MDMA binding site

 

[thegreenhand]

depends what you mean by mechanism

the pharmacology of mdma is pretty well described. it generally is understood to be a "serotonin releaser", among other things

how that serotonin release leds to profound feelings of love and empathy is another question... and one without an answer. in my opinion, this is where you have to look away from the pharmacology and start to think about different levels of analysis beyond the molecular one.

i highly recommend this paper, Neurological and cognitive alterations induced by MDMA in humans to get an idea of some other research methods currently in practice.

 

[Dr.ροζαγόρι]

depends what you mean by mechanism

the pharmacology of mdma is pretty well described. it generally is understood to be a "serotonin releaser", among other things

how that serotonin release leds to profound feelings of love and empathy is another question... and one without an answer. in my opinion, this is where you have to look away from the pharmacology and start to think about different levels of analysis beyond the molecular one.

i highly recommend this paper, Neurological and cognitive alterations induced by MDMA in humans to get an idea of some other research methods currently in practice.

Oh yeah thank you for this recommendation...as they state, in regard to 'what's key to us humans' is that:

Neurological and cognitive alterations induced by MDMA in humans



The consensus of the data in neurological and cognitive domains suggests that repeated use of ecstasy produces short to medium term neurocognitive/neurophysiological changes that are subtle, and are potentially reversible over time.

but I'm interested in the 'ontology' of the molecule itself, I mean how does interact with its primary target, the 5-HT transporter and how should it be 'addressed/classified' since for instance its deemed by the FDA as beneficial to treat PTSD. what do you think by the way?

 

[Dr.ροζαγόρι]

depends what you mean by mechanism

the pharmacology of mdma is pretty well described. it generally is understood to be a "serotonin releaser", among other things

how that serotonin release leds to profound feelings of love and empathy is another question... and one without an answer. in my opinion, this is where you have to look away from the pharmacology and start to think about different levels of analysis beyond the molecular one.

i highly recommend this paper, Neurological and cognitive alterations induced by MDMA in humans to get an idea of some other research methods currently in practice.

sorry by mechanism of action I mean..."how does this 'synthetic chemical entity' interacts with animal proteins to trigger such pro-social subjective effects of empathy and bonding...etc.

 

[thegreenhand]

but I'm interested in the 'ontology' of the molecule itself, I mean how does interact with its primary target, the 5-HT transporter and how should it be 'addressed/classified' since for instance its deemed by the FDA as beneficial to treat PTSD. what do you think by the way?

not sure i understand your question, sorry. i personally think the classification as an enactogen is best, if that's what you mean

sorry by mechanism of action I mean..."how does this 'synthetic chemical entity' interacts with animal proteins to trigger such pro-social subjective effects of empathy and bonding...etc.

well you're asking a very big conceptual question here. we don't even understand how a 'non synthetic chemical entity' like serotonin itself causes subjective effects. this is sorta the hard problem of consciousness. why does anything feel like something?

 

[Dr.ροζαγόρι]

not sure i understand your question, sorry. i personally think the classification as an enactogen is best, if that's what you mean


well you're asking a very big conceptual question here. we don't even understand how a 'non synthetic chemical entity' like serotonin itself causes subjective effects. this is sorta the hard problem of consciousness. why does anything feel like something?

Oh sorry I tried to ask your point of view as to how MDMA can be used therapeutically

 

[Dr.ροζαγόρι]

not sure i understand your question, sorry. i personally think the classification as an enactogen is best, if that's what you mean


well you're asking a very big conceptual question here. we don't even understand how a 'non synthetic chemical entity' like serotonin itself causes subjective effects. this is sorta the hard problem of consciousness. why does anything feel like something?

Oh I think I get your point. 5-HT is too complex and it's been around for ages in the evolution of animals, but MDMA came out from the lab of a single species and now it makes other species "pro-social" even invertebrates! apparently : A Conserved Role for Serotonergic Neurotransmission in Mediating Social Behavior in Octopus

 

[MountainTrails]

depends what you mean by mechanism

the pharmacology of mdma is pretty well described. it generally is understood to be a "serotonin releaser", among other things

how that serotonin release leds to profound feelings of love and empathy is another question... and one without an answer. in my opinion, this is where you have to look away from the pharmacology and start to think about different levels of analysis beyond the molecular one.

i highly recommend this paper, Neurological and cognitive alterations induced by MDMA in humans to get an idea of some other research methods currently in practice.

I can only find paywalled versions of this. Link?

It looks like something I'd really want to read. I have an interest in cognitive architectures (functional models of mind) and how they map onto different physical brain areas, and so ...

 

[Mjäll]

sorry by mechanism of action I mean..."how does this 'synthetic chemical entity' interacts with animal proteins to trigger such pro-social subjective effects of empathy and bonding...etc.

It seems to show that serotonin is important for love and bonding. That much i conclude.

Other than this i'm not sure what you're asking or proposing. And you threw in the word ontology which makes me even more perplexed as to what exactly you're trying to say. I have tried hard to define this word because it seems cool and important, but never found it to reliably signify anything.

I suspect neither you or i will bother to actually research this area and so will not get closer to any important truth about the science.

For me it's a tool to be used, and i feel no need to arrive at profound understanding of a mechanism in order to appreciate and own my use of the tool. However, i can also relate to the style of aimless pondering and seeming frustration at not knowing everything. Probably the illicit status increases such feelings by way of defensive reaction formation. This kind of stuff i deem realistic and fruitful for me to understand.

One more thing: It's more important to not have false conceptions than to know stuff.

 

[Mjäll]

About the words, i would prefer something like wellness-o-genic, but better and more latin sounding of course.

I don't think empathy or touch is at the core of this. I think it's deeper and broader. I think it's a shortcut and temporary visit to mental health, which can have therapeutic value by inspiring us but can also show some dark humor by comparison to normal functioning.

 

[MountainTrails]

I agree. The feelz are obvious, and positive (so I hear), but I don't really get them and I've still seen some beneficial/therapeutic changes I've found impossible to attribute to anything but the MDMA. There's more going on with this than whatever therapeutic benefit there is to feelings of love and empathy.

I should add that I draw a sharp distinction between emotional feelings and physiological sensations. They're two distinct and completely different things to me. I don't get a big emotional response. I don't feel happy. It's just ... a different headspace. But something's still working.