I can get an echocardiogram for free (no questions asked) because there is cardiomyopathy in my family.
Had an echo a few back ago and everything was good. I'm going to see if I can get one some time in the near future.
Psychedelics: whenever the hell I feel like it.
Empathogens: never.
Apart from 2C-E my rec drug use consists of smoking a gram of bud a day, drinking a can or two every evening and taking 15-20mg Valium every Friday or Saturday evening.
Nice! (Well, except for the cardiomyopathy....) I'm kind of a hypochondriac so I'd be getting them all the time if I had that lol. In that case yeah I would definitely recommend it, I mean if you're concerned about it and you can check for free then why not.... Heck, you could be the one to really bring some more direct evidence for 2C-E's safety if you do use it that often and you can get genuinely checked up now and then.
Well, with that kind of usage, I would really doubt that you'll ever run into any significant heart problems from serotonergic drugs, especially if the classics and 2C-x are some of your main trips of choice. And just, you know, if you ever find yourself dosing psychedelics very heavily for a period of time, maybe give yourself some time off for a little while afterward too. (From what I've seen in life so far, heavy use usually leads to this anyway.) You're right that the empathogens probably did contribute more for Shulgin.... I've pretty much sworn off them these days for that reason, if I'm going to be taking any risk at all I'd rather just cut out of the extra fluff and keep only the best stuff in, especially if the fluff makes it exponentially worse.... Unfortunately (at least from looking at the affinity numbers) I really prefer tryptamines to anything else, but I also only use them like once or twice a month (albeit in relatively high doses) so maybe it balances out.... I at least am not too worried about having anything become of it, and this is after a good several years of making very poor health decisions. I think it probably takes a pretty good amount of abuse to
seriously damage your heart, I just like to think about things on a lifelong scale so that I'm not surprised when unexpected things come at me late in life....
Fair point.
And yeah - the numbers I was looking at were the equalized affinity data. TBH it sounds like you know quite a bit more about biochemistry than I do.
I figured as much since the equalized data very misleading gives 2C-E a higher value or 5-HT2B than MDMA; here is the actual data:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009019.s005
It's an XLS so you'll need to view it in Excel or some equivalent program. I don't know how much you look at binding data, but just to be clear a lower number means more potent in nM, and >10,000 nM doesn't necessarily mean a drug doesn't bind there, it just means that they didn't test above that point. Though, this is typically because the drug has very low affinity, but with low potency drugs like mescaline it can lead to confusing hits of nearly all >10,000 nM. For those it's probably best to assume that this data doesn't tell you too much.... Overall though, I really like it. One of my biggest issues with binding data is that they're maddeningly inconsistent from one study to the next. That's why instead I like to get as many different values from one study as I can and compare ratios instead, so at least they all had the exact same testing procedure.... That's how I end up with saying that 2C-E seems to be one of the least potent 5-HT2B agonists, since 5-HT2A activity is a very effective measure of psychedelic activity in humans and the 5-HT2B value is only barely above that. It tells me a lot more than having one study showing that 2C-E binds to 5-HT2B and another study saying that 2C-B does as well, but with wildly different numbers between them that basically can't be compared at all.
And thanks, it's really just from years of personal research though. (I am starting to actually take chemistry classes now just recently though, it's fascinating stuff!) I like to understand what I'm putting in my body as thoroughly as humanly possible both for the sake of being as safe as possible and so that I can understand how to manipulate my brain to get the best experiences possible. Eventually after sifting through all the data for ages you just start to get used to what's good and what isn't and catch on to trends, and that's when you start noticing some really incredible things about the molecules and how they interact with us. I'm sure you'll get there too if you keep up trying to learn about what you take for long enough!
Makes sense, I just thought you read zn13bt's post and my response as some sort of justification for what happened to shulgin. Your best bet in getting an echo would be to schedule an consultation with a cardiologist and be %100 with him/her, bring some studies that link exposure of certain drugs you've ingested to 5-ht2b agonism and say you've been dealing with chest pains and palpitations if you feel they're not taking you serious.
The problem is that most cardiologists won't run an echo unless your at least symptomatic, chances are he'll order an EKG first, which btw is apparently a poor test for these particular problems as I've had 4 or 5 throughout several hospital visits, all negative. If your persistent and properly insured and/or willing to pay chances are you'll get your echo, it's totally non-invasive. I paid $300 cash for mine, this was while uninsured.
The reason I decided to get my echo was due to an un-related pulmonary embolism resulting in severe chest pains, pressure, and palpitations after a 6-apdb/5-apb session (It's very likely that the thrombus was already formed somewhere in my groin/thigh, and that APB's weren't the sole cause but increased BP and movement sent it to the lungs. I just told my doctor that I was a heavy MDMA/MDA user as they don't have a clue what the APB's are. OT, I know... but getting screened for valvular issues is totally harm reduction
.
It's cool, there was probably still a little bit of aggression in me when I read through the thread this morning too, I usually wake up kind of bitchy until I've had my morning bowl lol. Hey that works for me, I actually do have chest pains so I won't be lying. (Though I honestly think that this is mostly related to GERD and gallbladder issues, which I do however think may also have been caused/worsened by some of my drug/alcohol use.) I'm actually getting an abdominal ultrasound soon to see what all's going on down there too, so it wouldn't be out of the question for me to want to check other things as well.... Probably the most significant chunk of my 5-HT2B agonism has come from MDMA as well, so at least I can talk about something they're much more likely to be familiar with. That's interesting that the EKG won't catch it though, but good to know.... It makes me call into a question I study I read once actually, the only one I'm aware of where they tested psilocybin effects on the human heart, after a single dose. All they did was take a EKG if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I should did that up again though, it's been a while since I've read over it....
Ahh gotcha, well I'm glad you're okay! That's one of my main worries about drugs these days actually, increased blood pressure doing something like that.... That's another reason I really like sticking to tryptamines these days, especially since I usually just lie around and chill on them anyway.... I don't really live the healthiest lifestyle outside of drugs always and I've been on medication that increased the risk of clotting before, so now I'm kind of paranoid of issues related to it. I've finally started doing a bit better lately though, I actually lost some significant weight in the past few months for the first time in forever....
And yes, I agree! Education on checking for health issues is very much harm reduction.
