DXM Poli MoA & DXM:DXO Ratio

[Captain Cranberry]

I'm trying to get a couple of things cleared up about DXM polistirex:

1.) I know that the "extended release" functions by the plastic being dissolved (or metabolized?) in the stomach, with some of the DXM being absorbed quickly and some being absorbed later. (As I understand it, one dose starts being absorbed immediately and another on a roughly six hour delay.) What I want to know is whether the DXM that hits you first is DXM freebase, DXM HBr, or just DXM polistirex with less plastic?

2.) Does the delayed dose characteristic of DXM polistirex cause a higher or lower ratio of DXM : DXO? I've seen many people say that using polistirex results in more DXM, but I've seen an equal number of people say that it results in more DXO.

3.) Does attempting to flood the CYP2D6, CYP3A4, and CYP3A5 enzymes with white grapefruit juice actually work? And, does anyone know of something that clogs those enzymes more effectively?

4.) Similarly, does the number of electrolytes in your stomach affect the absorbtion of DXM in any way? I've seen no real evidence for or against it, and I don't know enough to make a judgement call.

Thanks in advance to anyone who reads / responds to this.

 

[Solipsis]

Hi and welcome

1. None of the above. The 'polystirex' (sic, weird spelling) is a copolymer of styrene / divinyl benzene with sulfonate groups. These are very large strands and make it a sort of plastic. The DXM is bound to these sulfonate groups like a salt, instead of to the Cl- in the case of the HCl salt. The H+ part is bound to the nitrogen of DXM (it is 'protonated') in these cases of salts. Anyway, think of it like a charm bracelet, the DXM is stuck 'magnetically' to some charms.

2. I'd say it results in more DXO, because if everything gets delayed then the enzyme CYP P450 2D6 has more time to covert the present DXM to DXO (but also note that similar things may be true for the conversion of DXO to 3-HM). Plus, unless I am mistaken the kinetics of 2D6 say that it is relatively much more active at small concentrations of substrate, adding to this. What are the explanations for why there would be relatively less DXO? I guess that is possible if at low concentrations the 3A subtype is relatively more active than 2D6 but you'd have to know those values and it gets complicated. Also the secondary metabolism pathway only takes away from the DXM concentration and doesn't affect the concentration of DXO, so I think even if it were the case it would only increase the concentration of DXO even more (thus lowering the ratio DXM : DXO).
Make sure you are not confusing things like the relative formation of DXO and the ratio of DXM : DXO rather than DXO : DXM.

3. Yeah there are compounds in there which act as inhibitors of various enzymes: furanocoumarins. Flooding would mean just competitive inhibitors that just outnumber the DXM but don't clog the enzymes. But actually they are irreversible inhibitors which means they can clog them and sabotage the whole damn thing so that you need to make new enzymes. Sabotaging your liver enzymes means that it can be dangerous to consume things also metabolized by these enzymes since you cannot properly break them down anymore. You should avoid going very far with enzyme inhibitors, it's generally a bad plan. Grapefruit juice, well maybe but depending on which drug you potentiate because you can OD and the concentration of parent compound or certain metabolites may be very different, changing the safety of the drug a lot. Possibly you can get more or less nauseous with GFJ and DXM, if I remember correctly DXO can be a nasty drug. Also don't underestimate grapefruit juice just because it's fruit. It can be pretty hard to dose drugs if you unpredictably mess with your enzymes. Add to that all the various interactions and ways how drugs and metabolites modulate each other's effects etc and it can easily lead to unintended outcomes. Be in control when you use drugs.

4. Why do you think electrolytes are relevant? Electrolytes are basically (mineral) salts, they can help solubilize some compounds which are otherwise not as soluble, for example in pure water. But there is a limit to how helpful they can be. There are salts in your stomach acid, I'm sure, but I don't think there is a point in consuming extra electrolytes for any reason relevant here. Stomach acid has hydrochloric acid and I assume salt which can already facilitate dissolution pretty good. What are you attempting? It's much easier to answer questions that are posed directly.

Good luck. If you're serious about drugs like these I recommend that you look for better dissociatives which are not pharmacologically dirty like DXM or involve annoying stuff to prepare or potentiate. I'm not saying just any other dissociative would be safe in various regards, but when you are going to extremes to get more out of DXM at some point it is just less unsafe to skip fucking with your liver enzymes etc.

Anyway when I experimented with DXM a bit I ground up polystirex beads and it was fine. Later I just switched to some kids formula with just the HBr in it. The SRI effect of DXM is quite alright in my book and the dissociation can be interesting but it just has way way too many side effects for me.

:D xoxo :D

 

[Captain Cranberry]

Thanks a lot, I was looking for a straightforward and informed answer like this. It's much appreciated.

To answer your question about "what am I attempting," I'm trying everything I can to get a psychedelic experience out of DXM. I've tried doses upwards of 900mg DXM HBr, and I can't seem to get past the 2nd plateau. I'm 6 feet tall and I weigh around 130lbs, which should make 900mg doses more than enough to send me to the 3rd plateau. I'm perfectly aware of how ridiculous that sounds, but I swear it's true. I don't have the foggiest idea of what's causing it though. I've tried going off my meds for two weeks and then tripping, but with no results. I've tried Robitussin max, Delsym, (and yes, I took into account the "1/2 as strong twice as long" rule,) and a kroger brand, but that didn't change anything either.

On top of that, I'm just curious about how all this stufff works. I'm very uninformed about how drugs actually function, but I desperately want to learn. I don't have access to a library, college, etc., so I figure that this is about the best I can do.

To digress a little bit though, I couldn't do the grapefruit juice thing anyway, it supposedly interacts with my meds. I knew that going in, but reading what you're saying about how the GFJ works, I might need to look into exactly what about it affects my meds. I don't want my meds to be screwing around with DXM, and vice versa. If my meds were acting as enzyme inhibitors and I didn't even know it, I can imagine how potentially dangerous that could be. Perhaps it isn't, but I don't know enough to be sure and I'm not taking any chances.

As for the electrolyte business, I'm just as confused about its relevance as you are. I saw a thread on the extraction of DXM polystirex (which I am trying to find again at the moment) where a bunch of people started talking about how electrolytes affected DXM polystirex in one way or another. I couldn't for the life of me imagine how that would work, so I figured I would try and ask someone who knew a lot more than I did.

Here's the exchange, for anyone who's interested:

"So if you have more electrolytes in your system it will work faster? I just got a case of G2 Gatorade and its a Low Calorie Electrolyte Beverage. Do you think if I mixed the delsym gunk with this that it would work faster, or am I just a fool? "

To which someone replied: "yeah, im pretty sure thats how it works. the more electrolytes in your stomach, the faster the ion exchange can happen. i would mix the gunk with it if you dont want to dry it. g2 has a good orange flavor too dont they?" After that they just talked about flavors and how well it supposedly worked for them.

So, to tack another question onto the end of this, does anyone know some dissociatives that aren't so unsafe? Besides K, I don't really know anything too similar to DXM. Again, I'm pretty new to all this.

 

[Solipsis]

Quite possibly you are a slow P450 2D6 metabolizer or an ultra metabolizer with 3A4. The former would make the formation of the (mostly) non-psychoactive 3-methoxymorphinan (3MM) the main path of metabolism. The latter would cause DXO that is formed to be metabolized away quickly so that you lose a lot of overall effect.

900 mg should have effect... even with polistirex the intensity should be about a little less than half that of taking the HBr i think.

Using grapefruit juice could have particularly unforeseen consequences for you because the difference could be unusually large if you go from a 3A4 ultra metabolizer to someone with massively inhibited 3A4. This means be extra careful trying shit like that and start low (with both), even if you are fed up trying large dosages pointlessly.

I don't know if you can get something like that tested (I suppose you could by analyzing your pee if they give you some chemical marker), not sure if it matters enough medically if nothing is wrong with you.

What meds were those again? sorry if you mentioned this.. I can't stress enough not to go off meds which need stable blood levels to be effective for weak reasons like these, especially psychiatric ones like antidepressants or antipsychotics. But yeah interactions would be really bad potentially so it's good that you're not taking any chances.
Your reaction to your medication could help rule out certain genetic enzyme expression regulaties, because 3A4 metabolizes a lot of things.

Oh i see, electrolytes are used to lyse the polystirex, i was thinking of the DXM itself.
Yes true: in the stomach, the hydrochloric acid releases the DXM and in the small intestine it's regular salt doing this. You don't need sport drinks, just your stomach acid and salt. I suppose other acids should work. I couldn't say if you can just release DXM in vitro by dumping it in some cola with a bunch of tablesalt added. Pay attention: too much salt can be really unhealthy so keep it reasonable. But yeah it's unlikely you'll overdose but inform yourself first before just randomly doing shit. I think it should work, should work even better if it is warmed.

Check out the Index: http://bluelight.org/vb/showthread.php?t=560442 and specifically find the dissociatives menu (or scroll down to see the expanded version of the index). Just read about them, better than people just recommending stuff. The PCP analogues and PCP, while normally being more reasonable than media would have you believe, are still pretty hard. You'd want to work your way up to that slowly. MXE tends to be hard to find since it became illegal in many places. There are direct K analogues like the fluoro, fluoro-deschloroket is strikingly similar to K itself. Nitrous is probably the safest though administering it should not be done recklessly or foolishly, but otherwise it's fine and has a short duration. I can't comment on the
O-PCE and O-PCM much, I really disliked O-PCM / DCK a lot the only time I had it and gave it away but supposedly I had a bad batch, only found this real possibility out later. Really not all dissociatives are so immobiliziing as DXM or K and close analogues... but O-PCM and O-PCE seem particularly immobilizing.
Diphenidine and co seemed to have a somewhat short-lived attention but I don't hear about it and I think diphenidine itself is a low-grade dissociative for all intents and purposes but in another sense an apparently rather "clean" NMDA antagonist. It seems this is actually not that great and gives you things like total (temporary) memory loss.

 

[Captain Cranberry]

Huh, that's pretty interesting. I'd heard of at least one of those before, but only briefly. I guess it never occured to me that I could've had that.

And yeah, by all accounts 900mg should affect me far more than it does. At best, I can hit the intermediate stage between the 2nd and 3rd plateau.

I don't intend to use the grapefruit now that I kind of know how it works and how it might affect me. If I can't get DXM to work, I can't get it to work. No reason to potentially harm myself over it.

I should've said what my meds were when I first mentioned them. Oops. The meds I take that interact with grapefruit are 300mg Seroquel (as an augmentative for Vistaril, not for psychosis) and 10mg Adderall.

I have no intention of dropping my meds for something as silly as getting more out of DXM; it'd cause more trouble than its worth.

Knowing if and roughly how the electrolytes work with DXM is super helpful. It's interesting to think that salt could achive the same effect. It makes sense, but it seemed counter-intuitive at first.

Thanks again, the link and your experiences with different dissociatives help a lot. I'm going to be searching through that index for a good while until I find a good match.

 

[Solipsis]

Strange..

Seroquel and Vistaril are mostly metabolized by CYP 3A4 so there should be even more formation of DXO if anything...

Always research drug interactions first. Amphetamines can increase the chance of getting serotonin syndrome with DXM. So bear that in mind before you start activating your polystirexed DXM.

At least your medication is not of a type that should be taken daily to sustain your blood levels, if not taken for psychosis. It shouldn't be that problematic if it is just for sleep possibly due to insomnia from the Adderall, however the main problems could be having to readjust to your original symptoms and potential issues before you level out. Seroquel stays in your blood for a very long time so it's just pretty shitty to stop for a long time.

I hope you really need to be on Seroquel, it's not something to take if you don't need to.

Realize that there are a number of interactions to check if you start trying other dissociatives. Also in my experience amphetamines even at a therapeutic dosage can feel pretty shitty with some dissociatives so I would definitely wait until the amp effects wear off.

Good luck.

 

[Captain Cranberry]

(I'm not totally sure what counts as a necro and what doesn't, but when I looked up the definition it said after "months or years," and it hasn't quite been a month yet, so apologies in advance if this turns out to be a necro post after all.)

Alright, so after a "last hurrah" effort to try and hit the upper plateaus before quitting, I think I figured something out. I don't think I have any sort of odd resistance to DXM; I'm pretty sure something else is happening. I've got two possible guesses as to what's happening:

1.) Perhaps 3rd and 4th plateau simply aren't what I expected them to be. I always hear about profound and distinct CEVs, or the feeling of leaving your own body and total dissociation. I've only ever really had dark, blurry, and kinetic CEVs. When I listen to music, they make me feel like I'm moving. Kind of like a roller coaster. I also I can't say that I'm ever totally dissociated during them either. Sure, I feel like I'm in a totally different, psychedelic world when I close my eyes, but I still feel like me. But maybe I'm just expecting the wrong thing. I think I might be expecting it to be much more powerful than it actually is. I'm not totally convinced though.

2.) My other guess is that maybe I just can't remember the experiences. I've never felt any sort of break in continuity, and it feels like I've always remembered all of my trips, but maybe I'm just not aware that I'm forgetting anything. Dunno. Those are my working theories.

In the end, I think I'm just going to move on to something else. But thanks again for taking the time to help me out, I really appreciate it. You've helped me out quite a lot, and I'm really grateful.