Does 10x changa differ from 1x?

[ron the tiger]

Hey all,
I've read the changa mega thread, but there didn't seem to be a lot of information on this specific question of mine, and the little information there was seemed to be unfocused and scatter-brained; so, I've decided to make a new thread on the issue for a more directed conversation.

Last year, after reading so many amazing things about changa, I decided to take the advice of my fellow hyperspace travelers and made some 1:1 changa with 1 gram of B. caapi leaves and 1 gram of DMT.
The blend absolutely blew my mind, and now I'm wanting to make some more. However, from what I've read people claim that there just simply aren't enough harmalas in caapi to provide any substantial MAO inhibition, and that to achieve full inhibition one must make a 10x infusion...
I know what I experienced was not a placebo, my time spent in hyper space was MUCH different and much longer than my normal freebase journeys, however, I'm also not about to dispute scientific evidence proving that MAO inhibition is impossible to achieve given the average amount of harmalas in a gram of B. caapi leaves.

Where does this information stem from? Science, or pompous intellectual hubbub? I would like to make the rest of my DMT into changa, but I only have just enough caapi leaves to make 2 grams of 10x 1:1 changa, so I'm wondering if infusing additional harmalas is necessary; I would also LOVE to hear the subjective differences in the two blends from someone who has tried both 1x and 10x changa.

 

[Yeetbeat]

Just for the information of myself and others: exactly what does the multiplier mean for these blends? It always seems to be for things you smoke or vapourise, like changa and Salvia, but I personally have absolutely no idea what 10x, 20x, 50x etc actually means

 

[phuckingnutz]

Generally the "X" means that whatever you have is that many times as strong as it comes naturally.
I would have to say that your harmala source would be 10x as strong as it normally is, since 10x DMT wouldn't make sense.
You'd take 10 parts caapi and extract all the stuff out of it, then mix the extraction product back in with 1 gram of the depleted caapi.

 

[Yeetbeat]

That's more or less what I figured the case would be, but I couldn't get my head around it in the context of plant material

 

[ron the tiger]

Yes, so say I have 11 grams of caapi leaves. Supposedly (so I've read, but my experience has been different) there is not enough MAOI activity in one gram of caapi leaves to potentate and lengthen the DMT experience. So, what one would do is take 10 grams of leaf, soak it in IPA, ethanol, or some other solvent, so that the harmalas get extracted from the leaves, then one would discard the 10 grams of leaves, and pour the liquid (ideally reduced to a smaller volume) over one gram of caapi leaves, so that after the solvent dissolves the leaves would now have (ideally) 10x the amount of harmalas compared to one gram of un-enhanced leaf.
In reality though the harmalas have weight, so it wouldn't exactly be 10x, it would be more like 9.5x or something depending on how much the weight of the caapi leaves change after all the solvent dissolves.

According to the study "Phytochemical analyses of Banisteriopsis caapi and Psychotria viridis" done by J. C. Callaway et. al. the caapi plant (they used caapi stems, so this may or may not apply to the leaf..) contains between 0.31-8.43% of Harmine, 0.03-0.83% of Harmaline, and 0.05-2.94% of tetrahydroharmine.

This means that in one gram of caapi leaves (if Callaway's research applies) there is anywhere between .0039-.122g of harmalas; i.e. 3.9-122mg. In ayahusca brews the amount of harmine used to provide MAO inhibition is in the 140 to 190mg range, whereas in the range of 120-140mg the DMT shows little to no central nervous activity implying that that the MAOs are doing their job.

I'm unsure of the dosage of harmalas needed to provided MAO inhibition when smoked... but in a common 1:1 ration of 1x changa 100mg of the material (meaning 50mg of DMT and 50mg of caapi leaves) would be smoked to produces a breakthrough experience. This means that only .159-6.1mg of harmalas would be smoked... in a 10x preparation this number (for 100mg of changa material) is a more impressive 1.95-61mg.

As I said, I'm unsure of the smoked dosage for harmalas, and I would believe (through the dosage ratios of these two ROAs in other drugs like methamphetamine, opiates, marijuana, etc not through any scientific evidence or experience) that 30-50mg or more of hamalas would provide MAO inhibition.. so perhaps a 10x preparation is necessary, because 6.1mg MAXIMUM of smoked harmalas seems a bit farfetched to provide MAO inhibition IMO.

thoughts?

 

[phuckingnutz]

thoughts?

Yes, you are overthinking this thing...
Here's food for thought, work into your calculations the amount of alkaloids left in the discarded leaf, as well as the harmalas emitted in the smoke not absorbed into your lungs, etc, etc, etc...
Just extract it and pile it on and light it up.
See what I mean? There's always something...

 

[ron the tiger]

phuckingnutz... I hate you -.-'
You're definitely right though. It's just I don't have enough caapi leaves to make all my DMT into 10x changa
I'll take your advice though captain, thanks for hitting me over the head with a whopping load of common sense, cause God knows I have very little of my own

 

[ADruggie]

I used to smoke the leaves on their own on a regular basis. Something happens after a few puffs which is certainly not placebo. I believe that there is more tetrahydroharmine relative to other alkaloids in the leaf than in the vine?? The leaves put me in a good mood and make me energized, almost manic for a day or two afterwards. Personally, I wouldn't assume that the science is 100% trustworthy.

 

[afer]

No need to be super exact here, as phuckingnutz pointed out. When making I changa just supersaturated 20 ml of boiling acetone solution with syrian rue extract (double A/B+Manske) and poured this all over 1.5 gram of mint leaves, threw in a gram of spice on top, stirred, then let evaporate. Worked like a charm, despite absence of THH in rue. Give it a try.

 

[kyt]

... so perhaps a 10x preparation is necessary, because 6.1mg MAXIMUM of smoked harmalas seems a bit farfetched to provide MAO inhibition IMO.

thoughts?

I have given this some careful thought indeed as it is of direct interest to me.


My theory is that the harmalas in changa are not there to be used as a MAO inhibitor. I believe the primary function in this case is for the psychoactive properties of the harmala itself as oppose to any inhibition.

DMT is active when smoked without MAO inhibition which suggests the primary mechanism of MAO enzymes is orally (gi tract, liver etc). As such there is no direct reason to smoke it with inhibitor itself. Theres a pretty good indirect one though.

 

[afer]

^Can't agree, since less DMT is required with harmalas to breakthough and DMT also lasts longer when smoked with harmalas. MAO enzymes are found in the brain tissue as well, not only in the gut and liver, and these can be successfully inhibited to a degree when one smokes harmalas.

 

[ronthetiger]

I really hope I'm allowed to "bump" my own old thread >.<

1: (to the mods) the OP was me, I had forgot which email address (I have a billion of them) was connected to my main account (this one, no spaces) so I made a new account but then, days later, remembered my old password. So don't penalize me please for multiple accounts.

2: now for an update for those who are as curious about the issue of vaporized MAOI potency as I was. Especially in regards to 1x leaf vs 10x or whatever.

I finially got around to making my first batch of 10x changa :D and let me say that I was 100% wrong about my 1x "changa" getting the job done.
My 10x batch of changa absolutely blew me out of the water, and although the 1x significantly lengthened and deepened the DMT experience, the caapi component was missing, and so it didn't feel like smoked ayahuasca and it didn't have a profound healing and theraputic touch to it, it simply felt like a lengthened and more mellow dmt trip. (Not that that's a bad thing ;])

properly made changa enfused with additional MAOIs is another whole level of depth, length, and complexity.

So for anyone reading this wondering if it's worth the effort to soak all those leaves and shit for weeks (according to the NEXUS) to enhance your leaf with more drug magic let me tell you, IT IS.