DMT released in a flood when dying - new study, and discussion

[Xorkoth]

Okay, so Rick Strassman hypothesized in his book DMTL The Spirit Molecule, that when you die, DMT is released in a flood, presumably to help transition you to whatever is next. He states clearly that it is a theory, he is guessing. We know the human brain does contain trace amounts of DMT sometimes in cerebrospinal fluid.

I am not saying it's not true, but a lot of people read the book and then tell everyone about it as if it's a proven fact, when it is not. The rumor has grown to epic proportions... I hear hippies confidently telling me that when you're born you get a DMT flood, when you have sex you get a DMT flood, when you meditate... etc. It bothers me because it's spreading a guess as fact. I like the idea of it, it would be cool if it was true, I just have never heard of any proof.

Just a few minutes ago in another thread I was talking to someone about this topic, and he posted a link to a study done on rats recently that seems to suggest that rats, when subjected to cardiac arrest, get a flood of DMT. The study suggests it may happen in other mammals (ie, us) too. I read through it some but it's hard for me to tell how seriously I should take this conclusion, because I am not used to reading this sort of dense writing. I was hoping some of you guys would be able to share some opinions on this study and its implications. The topic has long fascinated me, back in 2006 I was all about the 2012 global consciousness ascension and DMT blasts on death and all that other stuff but as I've gotten older I've become more guarded about what I let myself believe, I really like to have proof for almost anything before saying it is a fact and not just a speculation.

Here is the study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w

 

[S.J.B.]

Very cool. I read a good portion of the study, and it seems to show fairly good evidence that (a) DMT is produced in the brains of rats, (b) the pineal gland is not a significant contributor to this production, (c) the cerebral cortex is a significant contributor to this production, and (d) the levels of extracellular DMT increase (in some cases) during cardiac arrest. The release of monoamine neurotransmitters during cardiac arrest is not unique to DMT and occurs with many other neurotransmitters.

The conclusion of the authors in regards to the potential of this DMT increase to cause psychedelic effects:

It is unknown whether the concentrations of DMT reported in our study at cardiac arrest can elicit the effects of an exogenous psychedelic dose of DMT, or whether this surge of endogenous DMT similarly occurs in humans. Moreover, the conscious states reported by NDE [near-death experience] survivors may involve contributions from several of the other neurotransmitters found to surge at cardiac arrest in our prior rodent study21. Further investigation is clearly warranted to investigate whether DMT plays a role in generating neural correlates of near-death consciousness.

 

[Xorkoth]

Awesome, thanks for your synopsis. This follows my suspicions that there is nothing particularly special going on with DMT here, but rather a variety of brain functions/chemicals. I am quite sure DMT plays a role in consciousness in some way, otherwise it would not be produced in the brain. But the DMT release/pineal gland stuff that has propagated throughout society bothers me because of a lack of evidence, yet it's being preached as fact (preached is the right word in many cases, too). My girl won't drink tap water because she says fluoride calcifies the pineal gland and would stop endogenous DMT production. And she isn't even into that sort of stuff, thinks most new age type of stuff is bullshit, but it was so deeply ingrained in her by her hippie parents that she will not touch tap water under any circumstances or even use fluoride toothpaste. And it came from DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and subsequent speculation disguised as fact. It's not Strassman's fault, it's a cool book. It's the fault of people taking something and running with it and refusing to look at data that contradicts them.

 

[asecin]

i was dead twice from heroin overdose and this shit never occurred. yes, i was dead for several minutes but does one need to be dead forever to start having it being released?

 

[Xorkoth]

No the release is about the same time as death. There does appear to be a release in rats, sometimes. But that doesn't mean it's an active dose. Apparently, according to this study, there are many neurotransmitters released upon death. Also your subjective experience of dying probably has to do with your level of awareness at the time, I would imagine. Like if you go unconscious and die, you wouldn't realize it was about to happen or be aware of anything (I think, I've never died so I don't know).

Was it like anything for you when you died?

What defines "forever"? You can't start something after forever. It makes me think of a question I've often asked myself. At what point do you really die? What would happen if you got frozen to death and revived 500 years later? What would happen if you had cardiac arrest, died fully, were frozen, and revived in the future with advanced technology? Did you die? Did you go somewhere? Personally I think that when we die we just cease to exist as the identity that is calling myself "me" right now. But that our awareness is all the same, it is the universe itself, and all of subjective experience is happening at once in an infinite moment, simultaneously. So awareness never ceases but the illusion of Xorkoth will never exist again (in linear time) when I die.

 

[swilow]

Interesting read insofar as I could wrap my puny, monoamine-low brain around it. I suspect that if a similar study looked at dopamine, it would find changes in concentrations of it too during hugely stressful experiences.

Could the DMT just be a metabolic byproduct of some other significant process?

I am quite sure DMT plays a role in consciousness in some way, otherwise it would not be produced in the brain

Hmm, I don't know, the vast majority of the brain does not seem geared towards the experience of consciousness. You could remove most of conscious experience and all the apparent volitionary processes can still run and execute perfectly because that is already what effectively happens. What we actually experience consciously seems to be a very limited and filtered version of events. The brain does a lot more than generate this experience...

I just cannot imagine any particular evolutionary benefit to endogenously producing something which induces such a disorienting experience. How would the capacity to suddenly lose touch with the outside world benefit an animal? Not that this really happens though because no account of conscious experience even in extraordinary circumstances such as near death or whatever seem similar to a DMT experience. I suspect that whatever role DMT plays is at what we would call microdoses and could be involved in any of the untold number of unconscious neural events we will never be aware of.

I also find it hard to see how an experience immediately before death could be selected for by evolution.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The image of a DMT breakthrough while rushing into infinity does have a certain poetry to it.

 

[Xorkoth]

I just cannot imagine any particular evolutionary benefit to endogenously producing something which induces such a disorienting experience.

Well sure, when taken in many milligrams (or even, really, like 5), it produces a disorienting experience. But perhaps in very tiny amounts, used in certain ways, it helps mediate the conscious experience? I have no idea, I'm just speculating (please no one repeat what I said as fact because you read it on the Internet )

It also makes sense that it could be a metabolic byproduct, perhaps. As obviously it's quite closely related to serotonin, melatonin, and other tryptamines the brain uses.

 

[Shady's Fox]

When you do things the brain release wat, da fuck? What gives you euphoria it's called oxytocin. Before you go on a imagination flight, make sure you pack some logical facts in there too.

 

[Xorkoth]

That's not what we're talking about but... yeah okay dude. The entire premise of this thread is discussing a research study.

Oxycotin is, as far as we can tell, the chemical that is related to the feeling of love. Euphoria is caused by dopamine mainly. But all these feelings are extremely complex and surely involve more than we currently understand.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think brain scan studies have shown that therapeutic does 4-ho-dmt cause parts of the brain to communicate that otherwise would not when regulated by seratonin, so dmt produced by the human brain (if it exists) may act as a nuerotransmitter for some purpose (unknown). I'm failing to see what possible purpose a DMT surge would serve during a NDE, its seems lack it would be a massive distraction while you (are probably) trying to avoid a DE.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

DMT has shown signs of been a sigma 1 cell agaoinst. I guess small amounts of it could be the body kicking into gear it keep itself alive as the cells become starved of oxygen

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think i'll pass on participating in any clinical studies on this one.

 

[Xorkoth]

DMT has shown signs of been a sigma 1 cell agaoinst. I guess small amounts of it could be the body kicking into gear it keep itself alive as the cells become starved of oxygen

Glad to see you post in here, as you were the impetus for posting this.

 

[polymath]

The Nature article says that DMT has an anti-hypoxic effect, that probably explains why the brain may want to release that chemical during a cardiac arrest. There's probably so many abnormal things happening in the brain during a "near-death" experience that the subjective experience can't be explained with a single chemical.

One similar strange thing is that the human brain can sometimes record memories of auditory stimuli even when a person is in general anesthesia and is completely unconscious in every other way. Sometimes people recovering from a surgical operation can vaguely remember things that the doctors said in the operating room. In some cases this has even led to the patient physically assaulting the surgeon afterwards because they've heard something insulting being said about them.

 

[draculic acid69]

This is stoner folklore.Its one of those bullshit wives tails that circulate in the stoner world.its got zero basis in reality or medicine. and the only ppl who spread it are stoners with ZERO biological, chemical or medical training /understanding whatsoever.there is no way that the human brain upon sensing death is imminent decides to synthesise DMT and that the precursor to DMT is just sitting in the brain ready to be combined into DMT and then released. And even if it was what's the point? do dying ppl need to trip out before they die?no they don't.they need to try and survive and a dose of DMT would be counterproductive to this. I've heard ppl say that it's the chemical your brain makes when you die.when you die your brain doesnt keep making chemicals.its one of those things that ppl are convinced is true bcoz someone who they smoked pot with told them bcoz they themselves were told it by someone they smoked pot with.when the human body is dying all the resources go to breathing, absorbing oxygen,circulating blood and trying to not die.it doesn't go "oh I'm starting to check out here it's time spend precious valuable energy into tripping out and put more energy into trying to breathe than would be necessary if there wasn't a release of DMT flowing through the blood".there's no DMT storage space in the brain that is just waiting for the "release" signal.if there was then we could harvest ppl's brains and extract it from there.lets clear this bullshit rumour up with scientific facts so that truth rather than make-believe prevails.

 

[Xorkoth]

Although I agree with your assessment that it's "stoner folklore" (more like tripper folklore), spread as fact when it should not be, DMT is synthesized in the brain in trace amounts, this we know (as to whether it is used for something or is a metabolic byproduct, who knows?), and the study linked to in the OP (which is why I posted this thread) shows that some rats' brains released DMT upon having cardiac arrest induced (also a lot of other brain chemicals). I posted the thread to discuss that. Polymath had an interesting observation right above you as to why it may be the case. It frustrates me also that a bunch of people pass this along as fact (and I've heard it get even worse, people stating with absolute certainty to others who then believe it that DMT releases on birth, death, meditation, orgasm, etc etc, it's ridiculous). But maybe you have some input on your thoughts about this study? We are attempting to clear up this rumor with scientific facts in this thread.

 

[Mel22]

This is stoner folklore.Its one of those bullshit wives tails that circulate in the stoner world.its got zero basis in reality or medicine. and the only ppl who spread it are stoners with ZERO biological, chemical or medical training /understanding whatsoever.

Unfortunately, it has more legs than you're giving it credit for. For instance, a surgeon friend of mine loves to spread it as fact. I happily sent him this study, and rubbed in his smug fucking face that he and his "degraded pineal glands" from all those autopsies can go fuck each other.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

DMT is as fucking easy compound to biosyntheize thats why its found in trace ammounts in every single mammal and shit loads of plants and trees. DMT is a sigma 1 antagonist if your dying a release of dmt and other body chemicals will be fighting to stop cell death from happpening. Now what is folklore is would be claiming dmt is a interdimesonal chemical portal for consciouness to travel from the body on death to another realm.