Opioids Co-Dydramol CWE, My personal experience. Any advice?

[TheTurdWalloper100]

So today I have CWE-D Accord brand Co-Dydramol 10/500 mg tablets at around 12pm today.

My dosage was 10 tablets, so 100 mg of Dihydrocodeine with 40mls of water. (I had preformed the exact same procedure for my partner too after mine)

First I had added the 10 tablets to an empty glass, then I added the 40mls of lukewarm water and stirred until dissolved.
Then I put the glass with the mixture into my freezer for 25 minutes,
prior to this, I had wetted a cotton T-shirt as the filter for my second glass.

I had now taken out my first glass with the Dihydrocodeine/Paracetamol and to my eye I could see very clearly that they had both separated, Dihydrocodeine solution on top and paracetamol sludge at the bottom.
I had now prepped my second glass with my wetted cotton T-shirt as my filter and began to filter, this took around 10 minutes until it had stopped filtering,
so I twisted the T-shirt filter to extract any more Dihydrocodeine that could be left.

Now I had what I would think would be my pure solution and the filter was filled hardish putty pure APAP.
I had then taken the solution orally and waited for 20 minutes, bear in mind this was with an empty stomach and felt mild, and I mean MILD effects to which really didn't increase even after the peak of what would be 60 minutes,
normally in the past I have done this with generic brand codeine/paracetamol and felt ALOT more of a euphoric effect, nodding, warm fuzziness, etc.
I don't see if or what I'm doing wrong or if this just isn't possible to CWE with this brand of Co-Dydramol

I just personally find it strange because I have had just pure Dihydrocodeine tablets before (30mg), and it was genuine bliss, I would say 1.5x stronger than regular codeine.

Here are the listed ingredients in my Co-Dydramol tablets:

Dihydrocodeine tartrate,
Paracetamol,
Pregelatinised maize starch,
maize starch,
colloidal silicon dioxide,
stearic acid,
and water.

I'm kind of stumped as to why I haven't been feeling much of any effect from my CWE of this brand of Co-Dydramol…

Any info of any kind would be appreciated!

 

[AlsoTapered]

Library Genesis

libgen.pm

Note the solubility of paracetamol at different temperatures and are given in grams per kilogram of solvent.

Is your goal to remove 100% of the paracetamol or merely to ensure it's <1 gram? After all, 1 gram equates to two tablets (500mg of Co-Dydramol per tablet),

Because if it's the latter, drawing the solubility curve and a little bit of maths will show you that rather more solvent can safely be used that most people seem to think.

In fact, the general rule used by the UK medical profession is simply 'not more than 4 grams of paracetamol in 24 hours' which would provide even more leeway. That's simply because it takes the body up to 24 hours to replace the methionine required by the liver to safely metabolise paracetamol. Methionine is an essential amino-acid so a proper diet is required. In fact, Pametom (500mg paracetamol +250mg methionine) used to be dispensed to patients considered suicidal, which makes some sense.

Sorry if this post sounds pedantic but I've never seen instructions for a CWE that was truly scientific. I wanted to present you will referenced data (where possible) and let you decide how best to proceed.

I could only find the solubility of dihydrocodeine tartrate (bitartrate) in water at STP and sources vary. So I would usually try to supply three sources but Drugbank, a common source I use MAY have the decimal point in the wrong place, it's so vastly different,

Dihydrocodeine

dihydrocodeine tartrate

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Library Genesis

libgen.pm

Note the solubility of paracetamol at different temperatures and are given in grams per kilogram of solvent.

Is your goal to remove 100% of the paracetamol or merely to ensure it's <1 gram? After all, 1 gram equates to two tablets (500mg of Co-Dydramol per tablet),

Because if it's the latter, drawing the solubility curve and a little bit of maths will show you that rather more solvent can safely be used that most people seem to think.

In fact, the general rule used by the UK medical profession is simply 'not more than 4 grams of paracetamol in 24 hours' which would provide even more leeway. That's simply because it takes the body up to 24 hours to replace the methionine required by the liver to safely metabolise paracetamol. Methionine is an essential amino-acid so a proper diet is required. In fact, Pametom (500mg paracetamol +250mg methionine) used to be dispensed to patients considered suicidal, which makes some sense.

Sorry if this post sounds pedantic but I've never seen instructions for a CWE that was truly scientific. I wanted to present you will referenced data (where possible) and let you decide how best to proceed.

I could only find the solubility of dihydrocodeine tartrate (bitartrate) in water at STP and sources vary. So I would usually try to supply three sources but Drugbank, a common source I use MAY have the decimal point in the wrong place, it's so vastly different,

Dihydrocodeine

dihydrocodeine tartrate

Would methionine be in any way helpful for the liver even in normal, up to 4g doses or usual diet is enough?

 

[AlsoTapered]

If I were playing with CWE or simply taking a compound opioid, I would 100% buy a methionine supplement. But be careful because the average adult only requires 800-1000mg/day and methionine is evidently toxic in high doses. I would merely offset any paracetamol I had consumed. So the doses stated on the packaging of supplements is likely more than it really needed.

I don't think one 500mg capsule a day will cause harm, but I wouldn't presume to think that more = better

Methionine is converted to cysteine in the body which is the amino acid that prevents paracetamol toxicity so I would plan ahead as the conversion of one amino acid to another will be rate-limited. Cystine itself doesn't appear to be stored in the body and I note that N-Acetylcysteine is al used to treat paracetamol overdose BUT after the fact.

I hope you had more luck than I finding solubility data for dihydrocodeine tartrate BUT it does appear to be less soluble that codeine phosphate so I think a lot of people have struggled to use the CWE as written with DHC tartrate (since it's been asked on Reddit and other places). But as I pointed out, are you trying to remove 100% of the paracetamol or simply to remove sufficient to get under a mass that you are comfortable with taking?

Because if you read that paper it becomes clear that below 5°C, 250mL of water will only dissolve 2 grams of paracetamol. And since the rule is 'not more than 4 grams in 24 hours', that I would consider safe, especially if I had taken 1 gram of methionine 8 hours before.

I SUSPECT that the solubility curve of dihydrocodeine tartrate means that it too will become virtually insoluble in water at -5°C. I have no evidence but I had to adjust my thinking to extract DHC tartrate. But I have no evidence. And I hate the fact that I have to guess.

Sidenote - in some nations ONLY DHC (not codeine) compound analgesics are available as a [P]. I suggest that this is because it's more difficult to extract. But equally it might be due to differences in codeine metabolism between ethnic groups. Worse, equally it could be that it's seen as being less euphoric and therefore less likely to be abused.

Unlike codeine, dihydrocodine IS an active drug while codeine is purely a pro-drug of morphine. So ethnic groups who are poor metabolisers would benefit from DHC but not codeine.

I really did conduct a LOT of research... I have no life.

 

[TheTurdWalloper100]

Sorry for the late reply, I was just wanting to do an extraction of Dihydrocodeine as you would with codeine/paracetamol combos I did end up finding that dosing double what I had plus half a pack so in total 250 mg of Dihydrocodeine actually gave me some great effects, I do assume this is due to the less solubility of it and for now I have found a comfortable dose, and really I am after weighing out the dry APAP product consuming around 4-500 mg of APAP for that dose

@AlsoTapered you really chased this up and really having to take in the info you gave to me slowly as it's very in depth!

 

[SpiralusSancti]

If I were playing with CWE or simply taking a compound opioid, I would 100% buy a methionine supplement. But be careful because the average adult only requires 800-1000mg/day and methionine is evidently toxic in high doses. I would merely offset any paracetamol I had consumed. So the doses stated on the packaging of supplements is likely more than it really needed.

I don't think one 500mg capsule a day will cause harm, but I wouldn't presume to think that more = better

Methionine is converted to cysteine in the body which is the amino acid that prevents paracetamol toxicity so I would plan ahead as the conversion of one amino acid to another will be rate-limited. Cystine itself doesn't appear to be stored in the body and I note that N-Acetylcysteine is al used to treat paracetamol overdose BUT after the fact.

I hope you had more luck than I finding solubility data for dihydrocodeine tartrate BUT it does appear to be less soluble that codeine phosphate so I think a lot of people have struggled to use the CWE as written with DHC tartrate (since it's been asked on Reddit and other places). But as I pointed out, are you trying to remove 100% of the paracetamol or simply to remove sufficient to get under a mass that you are comfortable with taking?

Because if you read that paper it becomes clear that below 5°C, 250mL of water will only dissolve 2 grams of paracetamol. And since the rule is 'not more than 4 grams in 24 hours', that I would consider safe, especially if I had taken 1 gram of methionine 8 hours before.

I SUSPECT that the solubility curve of dihydrocodeine tartrate means that it too will become virtually insoluble in water at -5°C. I have no evidence but I had to adjust my thinking to extract DHC tartrate. But I have no evidence. And I hate the fact that I have to guess.

Sidenote - in some nations ONLY DHC (not codeine) compound analgesics are available as a [P]. I suggest that this is because it's more difficult to extract. But equally it might be due to differences in codeine metabolism between ethnic groups. Worse, equally it could be that it's seen as being less euphoric and therefore less likely to be abused.

Unlike codeine, dihydrocodine IS an active drug while codeine is purely a pro-drug of morphine. So ethnic groups who are poor metabolisers would benefit from DHC but not codeine.

I really did conduct a LOT of research... I have no life.

I never tried codeine nor dihydrocodeine, not even a tiny bit. Simply never been in a situation to get them pure (and don’t think dihydrocodeine is even a thing here) and I suspect I would need quite a bit to enjoy them. Last few times I’ve been into pharmacy I noticed they put something else into pills they used to have paracetamol, caffeine and codeine. It’s fenil-something.

But I do take paracetamol sometimes for pain. It helps when added to opiods so I can keep the dose as low and still get pain-relief.

 

[MatthiasG]

Library Genesis

libgen.pm

Note the solubility of paracetamol at different temperatures and are given in grams per kilogram of solvent.

Is your goal to remove 100% of the paracetamol or merely to ensure it's <1 gram? After all, 1 gram equates to two tablets (500mg of Co-Dydramol per tablet),

Because if it's the latter, drawing the solubility curve and a little bit of maths will show you that rather more solvent can safely be used that most people seem to think.

In fact, the general rule used by the UK medical profession is simply 'not more than 4 grams of paracetamol in 24 hours' which would provide even more leeway. That's simply because it takes the body up to 24 hours to replace the methionine required by the liver to safely metabolise paracetamol. Methionine is an essential amino-acid so a proper diet is required. In fact, Pametom (500mg paracetamol +250mg methionine) used to be dispensed to patients considered suicidal, which makes some sense.

Sorry if this post sounds pedantic but I've never seen instructions for a CWE that was truly scientific. I wanted to present you will referenced data (where possible) and let you decide how best to proceed.

I could only find the solubility of dihydrocodeine tartrate (bitartrate) in water at STP and sources vary. So I would usually try to supply three sources but Drugbank, a common source I use MAY have the decimal point in the wrong place, it's so vastly different,

Dihydrocodeine

dihydrocodeine tartrate

Senor AT, I could read your stuff 24/7 and never get bored. Yer a true renaissance man

 

[Liverlee]

Last time I did cwe was with co-codamol. 30mg/500mg x 12 pills. Did pretty much the same method and felt nothing for an hour, I then took two whole co-codamol pills and it was bliss a few minutes later.

 

[AlsoTapered]

The 30/500s are easy. It's the 8.4/500s that are hard.

Or the 7.84/500 dihydrocodeine tartrates. With the latter I found you have to base them and then salt them with phosphoric acid as DHC tartrate isn't as ridiculously water-soluble as codeine phosphate.

The key thing is to have a solubility curve of paracetamol in water. You will never remove 100% of the paracetamol - you just need to remove MOST of it.

If you want to use the codeine as a precursor - you need to B/A it. Luckily you can use HI to from the addition salt AND as the reagent to make desomorphine.