Can someone please explain/glutamate antagonist for benzo withdrawl

[Defaulted26]

So I've been trying to figure out this problem for awhile now, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...I am currently going through benzo withdrawal, but am 7 months free as of right now. Still dealing with intense anxiety and neuropathic pain and headaches (none of which I had before benzo's). My theory is this....

Back in the day about 5 1/2 years ago, I started doing DXM...started on low doses a couple times a week but for about 1 1/2 years I was taking upwards around 400mg a day. After I got off of this, I started to have what I thought were metabolic problems, mainly weakness and shakiness if I didnt eat for two hrs, however I adapted my diet and lived a perfectly healthy normal life (except the drinking excessivly part) lol. Then came the benzo's and they have ruined my life for the time being, even though I was only on them for a short while (3 months).

I believe that the DXM upregulated my glutamate, then the alcohol further upregulated this while downregulating gaba, and the benzo's were just the final straw, putting my gaba and glutamate further apart.

So I've been looking for things that can help and I am confused. I have read that glutamate antagonist can help, and that they upregulate GABA, but will also upregulate glutamate...I have also read that Gabapentin can be used but that affects GABA receptors..Thinking here of the big picture, when these drugs are used and then withdrawn, how do they help bring the two systems back together??

Is there anything that can downregulate glutamate and upregulate gaba upon withdrawal? I seriously just want to find the correct answer here as I do not want to make the situation worse...

Its perplexing to me that detox centers use medications that affect GABA to treat withdrawals from drugs that were targeting GABA in the first place..wouldnt continued activation of gaba receptors keep them downregulated while the glutamate antagonist continues to upregulate glutamate receptors causing the problem to become worse?

Anyone have any thoughts, ideas, explanations?? I could really use the info here..

 

[sekio]

Benzodiazepines do not "upregulate glutamate". Nor does any sort of NMDA antagonist like DXM, IIRC. I cannot agree with your self-diagnosis here.

Excessive glutamate in the synapse is an excitotoxin and causes seizures, cell death, etc. I don't think this is the issue if your complaints are of neuropathic pain.

I would put good money on your problem being related to a psychological substance dependence. Have you been completely sober for the past 7 months? What else were you doing in the multi-year period between your DXM usage and your benzo prescription? How much alcohol did you consume daily?

Its perplexing to me that detox centers use medications that affect GABA to treat withdrawals from drugs that were targeting GABA in the first place..wouldnt continuted activation of gaba receptors keep them downregulated

The idea is to "cushion" the transition for receptor agonism all the time, to no receptor agonism , by titrating the dose down slowly. While it does "keep receptors downregulated" it also makes it less difficult to endure withdrawal.

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

my understanding as benzo WD results in excessive glutamate activity because the GABA was responsible for inhibiting activity in those neurons. lack of GABA, lack of glutamate neurons being inhibited, too much glutamate. too much glutamate means neurons fire too much, means they are exposed to too much sodium, excessive sodium levels or exposure damages/kills neurons. but my understanding comes from undergrad psych classes that i have not taken for years.

so they slowly taper you off to allow for your brain to slowly balance back out.


but you have been clean for 7 months and still feel like you are still in WD? ....

I would put good money on your problem being related to a psychological substance dependence.

^this is where i'd put my $5. or more like a drug related paranoia/hypochondria kind of thing. seems popular among drug users.


i would not use chemicals to try to balance things out. not after 7 months clean. especially not without a doctor. but i am certainly not giving you advice on what to do.

 

[Defaulted26]

Sekio- My complaints are of the constant feeling the electricity is moving throughout my body and my system is hypersensitive. And if those things do not cause NMDA upregulation than alcohol certainly does...

"Chronic ethanol administration upregulates NMDA receptor function. Sustained or chronic administration of ethanol and other NMDA receptor antagonists increases the mRNA or protein levels of some NMDA receptor subunits and the density of ligand binding to NMDA receptors in rodents and in cell lines (Darstein et al, 2000; Follesa and Ticku, 1996a, 1996b; Gulya et al, 1991; Hu et al, 1996; Hu and Ticku 1995; Kalluri et al, 1998; Snell et al, 1996, 1993; Trevisan et al, 1994). In post-mortem studies, NMDA receptor upregulation is associated with human ethanol dependence (Freund and Anderson, 1996; Michaelis et al, 1993). Preclinical studies suggest that this NMDA receptor upregulation contributes to ethanol tolerance and the complications of ethanol withdrawal, including seizures and neurotoxicity (Crews et al, 1999; Hoffman et al, 1990; Thomas and Morrisett, 2000; Tsai et al, 1998)."

Just to name one study. During this period, I drank probably 8-9 beers a day plus more on weekends, there was one stretch of 6 months I was mostly abstinate a year ago. So basically I was 3 years total on DXM while drinking on occasion, then I got off, like 4 months drug/alcohol free, then drinking again for the next 2 years, then 6 months off of alcohol, then back on alcohol along with Klonopin for 3 months...C/T'ed everything as of November last year and have remained completely drug free since and have had severe problems which have gradually gotten better.

It is not a paranoia hypochondria thing, I can gurantee you that much lol..if it were that I'd be thinking I have all kinds of diseases..I never did anything else really besides the DXM, alcohol, smoked cigarettes for a bit but quit awhile ago, and then the Benzo's.

Perhaps neuropathic pain is the wrong word...just feels like my feet and legs always feel sort of sore or achy. The main thing the is definitely the hypersensitive nervous system..crazy insane startle reflex, muscle tension in chest and neck and scalp, the headaches...this is a constant all day 24/7 thing that is present despite how im feeling/what I'm thinking. Was in a good mood today just concentrating on work but all that stuff was still present..

I mean I have been on alcohol since I was 16, I'm 24 now, did all that stuff in between without much respite so I know Time away from everything is best, just not sure how long I can stand these sensations..I'm going to a psychiatrist In August and trying to get some info in the meantime.

Honestly I don't want him/her to just give me an SSRI and send me home, I mean you could say its an anxiety disorder, but I've had anxiety/panic attacks before and this is nothing like that. SSRI's can have similar horrible withdrawals so thats why I'm wary of that.

As far as the psychological substance dependence is concerned, I'm not sure of that because I honestly do not want to be on anything at all and it really wasnt hard to quit drinking or doing the DXM or to quit smoking. It was never mentally tough to give up those things

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

if it were that I'd be thinking I have all kinds of diseases

not what i meant. not really hypochondria; i just don't have a word for it. just saying that lots of people who have abused drugs develop a complex about thinking they have damaged themselves and need to fix it or restore some balance. it is not an uncommon thread here on bluelight. i can think of some specific members, but do not wanna mention names with asking them first.

but i dont really know that is what is happening with you. just saying it is a possibility to consider.

 

[Defaulted26]

I gotcha hydro, and you know what you are probably most definitely correct in that regard. I mean, I dont think something is "damaged" just slow to reverse..I just know I feel like shit and am looking for options lol.

 

[Mugz]

Moved

BDD ---> OD

 

[sekio]

The "brain zaps" and hypersensitivity make me think of SSRI withdrawal... DXM is, after all, a SNRI before it's a dissociative. If you were taking it for several years then it's quite possible you were using it to self-medicate for depression.

I'm sorry I can't think of anything else that would help. Perhaps you could try one of the racetam drugs? They are known for enhancing cognitive performance, possibly by mediating glutamate/GABA.

 

[Defaulted26]

Thanks for the responses Sekio, it is a confusing conundrum this benzo withdrawl. I dont have brain zaps although I know what those are like, I had those on paxil. Anyways, my problems didnt start really (my current ones) till I quit benzo'/alcohol. The word around the benzo circle is that healing takes between 6-18 months, as this is what is stated in the Ashton manual, so I'm still well within that time frame....its just a pain. I think that since I'm so far out, medication may not be of a benefit, but I guess we will see what this psychiatrist says when I see them.

 

[Trigeminal]

That definitely sounds like benzo w/d man. Anxiety, zaps, headache, neuropathic pain, etc. Everything you discussed. I've been reading about this a good bit lately, and for a lot of people dependent on benzos it can take upwards of a year to completely recover.

Edit: OK, I just saw you mentioned the 6 - 18 months average recovery time.

I think you should just hang in there, man. You're 7 months in, you're a good ways through this. One thing you could try is diphenhydramine. It's an antihistamine, and I've heard from several people it helps with benzo w/d. Haven't tried it myself, though. I've heard other people mention beta-blockers. I believe beta-blockers and diphenhydramine were mentioned in the Ashton manual, but I've been a bit scatterbrained due to my own benzo withdrawal so I can't say for sure. But you might want to give them a shot. Neither one of those are going to downregulate glutamate, though.

 

[Defaulted26]

Trigeminal-

Yea definitely, I would do beta blockers but my blood pressure is too low for those, normally like 110/65 so the doctor didnt want to lower it any more. That would be my ideal thing though, something that can just take away the chest tightness and stuff while my other systems heal. Thanks for the encouragement man, yea its one day at a time for sure. But G/L in your withdrawal as well...Here's to continued healing my friend!

 

[OldMiserableDrunk]

I know this is a very old thread but I am experiencing the exact same problem but from alcohol rather than benzo withdrawal. I've been sober for over 4 years but can not get rid of the extreme anxiety. I've learned lots from this board about increasing GABA and seretonin which has helped slightly but nothing has stopped this glutamate storm causing panic attacks. You would think after 4 years my brain would level out but no. I drank heavily and daily for about 20 years but 4 years is a long time to still be recovering. Can anything be done to limit the glutamate and thus hopefully stop the panic attacks? I've tire ADs without success. No doctor here will provide benzos even as a short term option.