Can microdosing 4-ACO DMT help with gaining perspective, depression and anxiety?

[Mycophile]

I've never microdosed anything, or tried an RC psychedelic, but I have used shrooms and LSD and Salvia, and I know that 4-ACO DMT is closely related to shrooms and the last time I did them was a VERY peaceful experience for me.

I have anxiety and depression and find that the medications I take often don't work as well as they should, but have had relief from things like Kratom that I love but which have led to some problems because of the withdrawal, so I want to try microdosing 4-ACO DMT...and also sometimes having actual trips on it, and see if MAYBE it could help me gain perspective in life and also be used as an anti-depressant and to an extent even an anti-anxiety aid (more anti-depressant and something to make me appreciate life from a more positive perspective.)

Do people here think it can be used in this way?

I've heard people do to some extent with microdosing with mushrooms and others, so could it be possible I could get something like this out of microdosing 4-ACO-DMT?

 

[GearoftheYear]

4-ACO-DMT microdose works. Shrooms might be better due to being easier to dose and less potent by weight.

I would not microdose more than once a week or at all on medication. There is a residue build up in effects.

 

[Mycophile]

4-ACO-DMT microdose works. Shrooms might be better due to being easier to dose and less potent by weight.

I would not microdose more than once a week or at all on medication. There is a residue build up in effects.

What do you mean "there is a residual build up in effects?"

Me personally, I've been told that Lexapro and Klonopin (the meds I take ) don't have negative interactions with 4-ACO DMT (if anything SSRIs could weaken them) so I'm not planning on going more slowly because I take Lexapro.

I'll be careful if I do this, but I don't so far think there's a need to go more slowly cause I take an SSRI unless I hear otherwise.

 

[Vastness]

It really doesn't make sense to say that shrooms are "easier to dose" given that the psilocin/psilocybin content of any given mushroom is usually pretty unclear and can vary even within the same batch.

4-AcO-DMT is by far going to allow for more accurate dosing.

As far as the medicines you are taking, both of them typically have somewhat blunting effects on psychedelics. It's an interesting and probably unanswered question whether the benefits of microdosing will also be blunted somewhat, given that a microdose should be sub-perceptual anyway. I would say the likelihood is that it will reduce the effectiveness a little - probably the klonopin moreso - and I say this on the basis that the benefits from microdosing are likely largely from the increased activation of neuronal pathways that are seldom or never used normally, and this may be inhibited by benzodiazepines which have a slightly suppressive effect on certain neuronal firings ( /broscience, I do apologise).

All that said there is basically no in-depth research of what is actually going on in the brain during microdosing, or even hard evidence that microdosing is effective at all beyond placebo (I used to be very skeptical but am slowly coming round to the idea of benefits), so your current meds might have no effect at all on whether microdosing is helpful for you.

As far as residual effects, most people as far as I am aware typically microdose every 3 days or something like that - but it was my understanding this was moreso due to the dose-response-tolerance curve of psychedelics, which even if you can't feel it can probably be assumed to be similar to that of a full dose - ie, if you dose 2 days in a row the second dose will be much less effective.

 

[Mycophile]

It really doesn't make sense to say that shrooms are "easier to dose" given that the psilocin/psilocybin content of any given mushroom is usually pretty unclear and can vary even within the same batch.

4-AcO-DMT is by far going to allow for more accurate dosing.

As far as the medicines you are taking, both of them typically have somewhat blunting effects on psychedelics. It's an interesting and probably unanswered question whether the benefits of microdosing will also be blunted somewhat, given that a microdose should be sub-perceptual anyway. I would say the likelihood is that it will reduce the effectiveness a little - probably the klonopin moreso - and I say this on the basis that the benefits from microdosing are likely largely from the increased activation of neuronal pathways that are seldom or never used normally, and this may be inhibited by benzodiazepines which have a slightly suppressive effect on certain neuronal firings ( /broscience, I do apologise).

All that said there is basically no in-depth research of what is actually going on in the brain during microdosing, or even hard evidence that microdosing is effective at all beyond placebo (I used to be very skeptical but am slowly coming round to the idea of benefits), so your current meds might have no effect at all on whether microdosing is helpful for you.

As far as residual effects, most people as far as I am aware typically microdose every 3 days or something like that - but it was my understanding this was moreso due to the dose-response-tolerance curve of psychedelics, which even if you can't feel it can probably be assumed to be similar to that of a full dose - ie, if you dose 2 days in a row the second dose will be much less effective.

Ok, so then basically, it sounds like it doesn't matter much even if my SSRI or Klonopin reduce the effects somewhat (from past shroom trips i THINK the SSRI has reduced it SOMEWHAT but not so much LSD)....because I don't care if what would NORMALLY be considered a microdose for someone NOT on these drugs has the same effect for me and I need more cause I'm interesting in also using actual psychedlic trip doses as therapy too, I'm just a bit more weary to do so for a few reasons, mainly that I have never tripped on an RC psych and also lived with people I'd have to hide my experience from....

Whatever the dose might be, microdose, higher than normal microdose, mild, moderate or heavy trip, I just want to see if I can use 4-ACO DMT for therapeautical benefit.

I mean sure, I wouldn't mind some fun out of it, but I want to see if I can use this psychedelic AT ANY DOSE for self improvement.

 

[GearoftheYear]

Residual build up, when you start microdosing a psychedelic daily, after a week or so you begin to get additional psychedelic effects until you stop. Not a full on trip, but intense synchronizations start to occur and dreaming/awake become very alike. It isn't pleasant and becomes quite an experience in itself. I found this occurred more with LSD microdose, but it's worth noting. Tryptamines are shorter acting, but I would not go eating them every day, especially if on other medication.

For dosing vs shrooms, a volumetric dose of 4-aco-dmt is going to be easier to measure. But that will soon degrade and it's pretty much impossible to accurately weigh by powder for the average user. Scientifically yes the volumetric dosage of 4-aco-dmt will be more accurate, but you could just put a large bag of mushrooms into honey or extract tek. I opted for worst case scenario in this case and considered Mycophile to be working with raw powder or mushrooms.

For the sake of harm reduction, I find shrooms much easier to weigh for a microdose. It's easier to break a stem than mess with potent powder. If you're going volumetric, make a solution with the shrooms and don't waste your 4-aco-dmt. The difference of 0.1g - 0.3g of mushrooms isn't much for common strains, with 4-aco-dmt jumping 0.1g - 0.3g is insane, or 0.001g - 0.003g is enough to start tripping for sensitive users.

Shrooms are my go to for tryptamine microdose. What was your experience with microdosing either Vastness? I just couldn't microdose 4-aco-dmt without some colors starting to change or else feeling nothing. I find the comeup like oral DMT too so it's darker but I prefer this for a solid trip.

Klonopin aka clonazepam is going to seriously dull the effects, I could sleep peak 150ug LSD on clonaz. Really if you're taking a benzo+ssri I wouldn't even recommend a trip, although plenty will disagree. If you took a microdose/low dose you probably wont feel it.

Mycophile, you might get more therapeutic benefit for depression/anxiety by a mid dose of 4-aco-dmt if that's the chemical you intend to use, not a microdose when on the current meds. 35-40mg normally cures me for 2+ weeks (strong dose). Shrooms also work great. The medication makes this difficult to answer. A single normal trip dose also means your not adding another prescription (psychedelic microdose) to yourself on a regular basis and so the safety profile is increased provided there is no medication interaction.

 

[Mycophile]

Residual build up, when you start microdosing a psychedelic daily, after a week or so you begin to get additional psychedelic effects until you stop. Not a full on trip, but intense synchronizations start to occur and dreaming/awake become very alike. It isn't pleasant and becomes quite an experience in itself. I found this occurred more with LSD microdose, but it's worth noting. Tryptamines are shorter acting, but I would not go eating them every day, especially if on other medication.

For dosing vs shrooms, a volumetric dose of 4-aco-dmt is going to be easier to measure. But that will soon degrade and it's pretty much impossible to accurately weigh by powder for the average user. Scientifically yes the volumetric dosage of 4-aco-dmt will be more accurate, but you could just put a large bag of mushrooms into honey or extract tek. I opted for worst case scenario in this case and considered Mycophile to be working with raw powder or mushrooms.

For the sake of harm reduction, I find shrooms much easier to weigh for a microdose. It's easier to break a stem than mess with potent powder. If you're going volumetric, make a solution with the shrooms and don't waste your 4-aco-dmt. The difference of 0.1g - 0.3g of mushrooms isn't much for common strains, with 4-aco-dmt jumping 0.1g - 0.3g is insane, or 0.001g - 0.003g is enough to start tripping for sensitive users.

Shrooms are my go to for tryptamine microdose. What was your experience with microdosing either Vastness? I just couldn't microdose 4-aco-dmt without some colors starting to change or else feeling nothing. I find the comeup like oral DMT too so it's darker but I prefer this for a solid trip.

Klonopin aka clonazepam is going to seriously dull the effects, I could sleep peak 150ug LSD on clonaz. Really if you're taking a benzo+ssri I wouldn't even recommend a trip, although plenty will disagree. If you took a microdose/low dose you probably wont feel it.

Mycophile, you might get more therapeutic benefit for depression/anxiety by a mid dose of 4-aco-dmt if that's the chemical you intend to use, not a microdose when on the current meds. 35-40mg normally cures me for 2+ weeks (strong dose). Shrooms also work great. The medication makes this difficult to answer. A single normal trip dose also means your not adding another prescription (psychedelic microdose) to yourself on a regular basis and so the safety profile is increased provided there is no medication interaction.

As for the bold, I STRONGLY disagree that it isn't worth it because I have already tripped on shrooms a few times while on Klonopin, not sure if any of the times I took LSD I was on Klonopin, and every time I've tripped on any substance I have been on either Prozac or Lexapro.

I mean I have very rarely gotten any visuals off shrooms, but that's not my favorite part, it's the feeling of peacefulness I get, and the last time I took them, though it was about 10 years ago, I was on the same dosage of Klonpin I am now, though I was on Prozac and not Lexapro.

Honestly, I just have to dose higher for the same kinds of effects as if I didn't take them, or at least I can't be sure as I have nothing to compare it to as like I've said, I've never tripped while NOT on an SSRI, though yes, I have tripped while not on Klonopin.

I mean, I can skip a dose of Klonopin and take whatever psych I want, but as you know Klonopin has a VERY long half life and it also is active for 12 hours (in terms of anxiety relief).....so it would still be in my system, but would probably not effect my trip as much as if I took it that day.

I cannot take shrooms now as: 1) I don't know where to buy them 2) I don't know where to find them in the wild and don't feel safe foraging 3) my current set up does not lend itself to growing, or else I would, and plan on growing shrooms some day.

I do NOT plan on taking 4-ACO DMT every day or every other day. I never said that. I don't have an idea of how often I'd do it, but I wasn't thinking more than 3-4 days a week MAX....or maybe less than that, maybe once a week, maybe some weeks not at all.

I don't think I'd be doing enough for what you describe to happen, but I've never used an RC psych so I just want to try it out.

And yes, perhaps I would get more benefit from a mid range dose, and I'm not dead set on microdosing or dosing at any particular dose at all, just whatever might be beneficial for me.

The only thing is that I live with my family and I can't trip around them and have it be noticeable, and also, my desire in using 4-ACO DMT is not really to "trip balls" but to see if I can use somewhat lower amounts for depression and anxiety.

So to me, it doesn't matter if the doses I'd use are larger than others cause of my meds, as long as it's safe I'll use whatever dose works for me, but you are wrong that psychedelics don't ever have real effects on people who take Klonopin and SSRIs, they DO reduce the effects, but the effects are still totally there.

 

[GearoftheYear]

This is the last post I'm making in this thread, as it's clear you've made your own decision with this.

Look up some basic articles on microdosing and you'll see why I refer to every day or every other day, most studies at the moment follow a dose schedule (similar to a prescription). Such as once every three days as per Fadiman's notes. Even 3-4 days a week expect some of what I have referred to as residual build up.

I never said it wasn't worth it or that they don't have real effects, but psychedelics do a lot to the brain which we don't fully understand. By taking a downer or anti depressant you will be masking some effects, by taking both you will drastically.

I said it dulls the effects, have a search for benzos and psychedelics - many have discussed this here and I was also reporting from personal experience. Psychedelics on benzos is like childs play compared to a sober psychedelic experience and I've did it both ways many a time on many different benzos and psychedelics. Yeah you might handle 300-400ug on some clonaz, but try it sober before making such a claim. Not to forget your also on Prozac or Lexapeo which dull the effects even more.

Did you not question if maybe the reason you didn't get visuals on shrooms was because of the prescription you were on? Ever think that taking an anti-anxiety medication, while trying to focus on dealing with your anxiety by introducing a psychedelic is a really silly idea and you're setting yourself up to be worse than before. How are you meant to treat something your masking? That's why I don't recommend it.

Lexapro+clonaz+4-aco-dmt...fantastic combo for curing anxiety...get the clonaz tolerance down and you'll feel much better. I can't speak for SSRIs but hear they work for some people.

 

[Mycophile]

This is the last post I'm making in this thread, as it's clear you've made your own decision with this.

Look up some basic articles on microdosing and you'll see why I refer to every day or every other day, most studies at the moment follow a dose schedule (similar to a prescription). Such as once every three days as per Fadiman's notes. Even 3-4 days a week expect some of what I have referred to as residual build up.

I never said it wasn't worth it or that they don't have real effects, but psychedelics do a lot to the brain which we don't fully understand. By taking a downer or anti depressant you will be masking some effects, by taking both you will drastically.

I said it dulls the effects, have a search for benzos and psychedelics - many have discussed this here and I was also reporting from personal experience. Psychedelics on benzos is like childs play compared to a sober psychedelic experience and I've did it both ways many a time on many different benzos and psychedelics. Yeah you might handle 300-400ug on some clonaz, but try it sober before making such a claim. Not to forget your also on Prozac or Lexapeo which dull the effects even more.

Did you not question if maybe the reason you didn't get visuals on shrooms was because of the prescription you were on? Ever think that taking an anti-anxiety medication, while trying to focus on dealing with your anxiety by introducing a psychedelic is a really silly idea and you're setting yourself up to be worse than before. How are you meant to treat something your masking? That's why I don't recommend it.

Lexapro+clonaz+4-aco-dmt...fantastic combo for curing anxiety...get the clonaz tolerance down and you'll feel much better. I can't speak for SSRIs but hear they work for some people.

I know that my meds dull psychedelics and yes, I do think the reason I didn't get visuals on shrooms might be because I was on Klonopin, although I have usually heard that SSRIS dull them worse, and I HAVE gotten visuals while on SSRIS.

However, I will take my last shroom trip on Klonopin WITHOUT visuals ANY DAY over the ones w/ visuals before I was on it because it was so peaceful, and that is what I am looking for more of.

I CANNOT get off my SSRI or my Klonopin right now, so asking me to do it is a non-issue, it's just not possible for me now.

I could certainly choose not to take my Klonopin however and have less in my system.

And no, I do not understand your point on the bolded and I will explain why, even though I know you aren't responding anymore:

First off, 1) no matter how much I "mask" my anxiety with my medications, BELIEVE ME, it is still VERY much there, and VERY much responded to shrooms in the past and was would likely respond to 4-ACO DMT.

Also, I think taking a psychedelic is sort of "masking" your anxiety as well. I mean, if it gives you a reaction that calms your anxiety, then is it not masking it? I think so.

I do not see in ANY way why using a psychedelic for anxiety while on my meds could make me worse than before, and it has not been the case with my past trips on them.

I am not looking to use the psychedelic in such a way so as to "bring out my anxieties" and become like, more anxious and have to face my fears or something like some people use psychedelics as therapy.

NO...I am looking to use them to gain a different perspective on my issues and the calming feeling that I got from my last shroom trip, and honestly, could I have that same shroom trip once a week that I had years back even while on Klonopin I think my life would be in a better state now.

That trip gave me enough perspective on my anxiety and depression that I'd be happy with it again.

Also, the way you say "psychedelics is like child's play on benzos" is kind of like you are trying to make taking psychedelics into some "manly sportive competition LOL".....I am quite sure it DOES make it much less anxiety producing, nor do I care.

I'll admit I would prefer a stronger psychedelic experience, and I already want to get my Klonopin tolerance down for MUCH more important reasons than to take a psychedelic, but a stronger trip would be an added benefit.

Listen man, I DON'T CARE WHAT WORKS, JUST AS LONG AS IT WORKS.

I'm not about using psychedelics specifically or 4-ACO DMT for my issues, I'd use Ketamine if I could, or keep using the Kratom that worked so well if it wasn't causing so much withdrawal, or I'd try any other category of substance that might work, or hell, any therapy or activity that might work as I have already tried plenty of non-drug options.

This isn't and has never been primarily about wanting to try a psychedelic, it's just about figuring out anything that might work for me.

And because currently entirely getting off my Klonopin and Lexapro are not options (though I BADLY want to reduce the Klonopin), then I have to use whatever will at the very least not kill me from the interaction, and since psychedelics don't cause WD they seem a better option than Kratom.

If I could just go back to using Kratom I'd be happy with that, but I'll use whatever feels like it might work with fewer WD and side effects, and if 3-4 days a week was too much I wouldn't microdose at all on a schedule and only use it once or twice a week.

I'll just take whatever I can get at this point.

 

[awesome31311]

You'll have to hear me out even though my post is about acid, not 4 ACO DMT.

They have done experiments on rats (or mice, I can't remember) where they injected them with a high dose of acid every single day. Eventually the rat became withdrawn (he "dropped out" ) and was startled easily. I've noticed this myself when binging on psychedelics (ie heavy use). I get startled real easily, my short term memory is mediocre, and I'm very creative/sociable/calm. Pareidolia kicks in as well.

Now, about your question on microdosing. It's possible that the effects may be different from the ones I described, since they entail anecdotal evidence as well as a study done on rats, both cases involving a high dose being taken regularly. Maybe with a microdose, you build tolerance to the substance slowly, and the effects are not as intense. Also to OP, the reactions you get when talking about psychedelics as a therapy for mental illness are always going to be this way, take it from me mate. When I saved my life by trying acid two years ago, nobody believed me, and they all said "Well, in the long run...". You just have to stay positive and listen to the nay-sayers if they bring evidence. If they don't, then just dissolve their words in your head, you don't need them.

Just out of curiosity, which "medication" were you prescribed for your issues? If they were SSRIs or MAOIs, please do your research before indulging. If they are dopamine antagonists like antipsychotics (except haldol for some reason), they will cancel your trip out for a couple of months at least (especially if you've gotten an injection or been on them a while). I do agree, the big pharma shit is no good for me either. Ironically they brainwash you into thinking acid will destroy your life while getting you started on life destroying "medication". Not saying that acid doesn't mess people up, it does, but big pharma shit is far worse and it's not voluntary some of the time.

 

[Vastness]

^ I do question the usefulness and the methodology of that experiment. Can you imagine what it must be like to be a tiny animal that barely understands that it's alive, but probably has some sense emotionally that it is imprisoned, by incomprehensible, seemingly omnipotent beings who subject it to experiments of a nature or purpose that it cannot hope to understand... and then, on top of this, you have to endure repeated, heroic doses of psychedelics, and find even your most basic assumptions about reality shifting in ways that you cannot hope to explain.

Obviously a rat will not be internally verbalising it's experience like a human would, which has both pluses and minuses - but it doesn't change the fact that this must be an incredibly frightening experience.

I guess we learned that repeated, huge doses of hallucinogens don't, in a vacuum, result in rats that, having glimpsed the face of god and the true nature of reality, spend the rest of their short lives in blissful, enlightened tranquillity until they are "sacrificed" so their brains can be dissected.