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Any research about racetams and stimulants?

logarithm

Bluelighter
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Aug 11, 2012
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Racetams like piracetam combined with stimulants like amphetamine seem to be a very interesting combination. Does anyone knows about research concerning this combination? I only could find a paper from Slais (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22607774). I cannot believe that there is not more research about this topic. Piracetam and amphetamine are both long known and piracetam boosts amphetamine and lowers the side effects and probably has brain health promoting effects. This seems very bizarre. Is this because pharma industry can't make money with piracetam? If you have any info or experience about combing the two substances please feel free to post here.
 
weaker racetams always just lowered negative effects atleast not counting tachycardia. I never tried the 1:1 ratio of choline and then taking amphetamine always just sort of guessed what might work long before realizing the nature of piracetam 1:1'd
 
I don't have the impression that piracetam will only lower the negative effects. What you mean by "guessed what might work long before realizing the nature of piracetam"?
 
I don't know enough about the racetam family to make a real judgment, but it doesn't seem like this combination would be good for anyone with any kind of a cardiovascular problem, even if the side effects do seem diminished.
 
I don't know enough about the racetam family to make a real judgment, but it doesn't seem like this combination would be good for anyone with any kind of a cardiovascular problem, even if the side effects do seem diminished.

Farmakol Toksikol. 1990 Nov-Dec;53(6):22-3.
[The antiarrhythmic action of piracetam].


Only thing I found after searching for about 30 seconds. With piracetam at least, it's possible it might actually be beneficial for someone with certain kinds of cardiovascular problems.
 
Also, with the racetams being positive allosteric modulators of AMPARs, you'll find some who are of the opinion that an amphetamine-ampakine combo would increase tolerance and add to excitotoxicity caused by extracellular glutamate. It sounds like a reasonable enough theory but there doesn't really seem to be any evidence to support it. In fact, there's also some reason to believe that there would be some protection against excitotoxicity, because of AMPARs' GluR2 subunit that will take control over the cells ion permeability, excluding Ca2+ always, and Na+ and K+ if it's the GluR2(R) form found predominately with AMPARs in the CNS. Since practically all AMPARs have a GluR2 subunit, they look to be pretty well protected from any sort of calcium gang rape.

But who knows really. There's not exactly a wealth of information out there coming from any studies done on dealing with the effects of mixing nootropics with speed.

EDIT: Totally thought I had addressed some information that could give credit to the idea NMDARs are safe too, because I know I read some explanation about it earlier, but I can't remember what it was specifically, and didn't mark it. Right now, looking at some papers on excitotoxicity and NMDA receptors and the more recent ones don't really help to explain anything for certain and just make things seem more of a mystery. New observations of Mg2+ and Ca2+ interactions with the receptor and its now, 5 different subunits, only seem to raise more questions and totally screw up the tiny bit I thought I did know about modulation.
 
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Also, with the racetams being positive allosteric modulators of AMPARs, you'll find some who are of the opinion that an amphetamine-ampakine combo would increase tolerance and add to excitotoxicity caused by extracellular glutamate. It sounds like a reasonable enough theory but there doesn't really seem to be any evidence to support it. In fact, there's also some reason to believe that there would be some protection against excitotoxicity, because of AMPARs' GluR2 subunit that will take control over the cells ion permeability, excluding Ca2+ always, and Na+ and K+ if it's the GluR2(R) form found predominately with AMPARs in the CNS. Since practically all AMPARs have a GluR2 subunit, they look to be pretty well protected from any sort of calcium gang rape.

EDIT: Totally thought I had addressed some information that could give credit to the idea NMDARs are safe too, because I know I read some explanation about it earlier, but I can't remember what it was specifically, and didn't mark it. Right now, looking at some papers on excitotoxicity and NMDA receptors and the more recent ones don't really help to explain anything for certain and just make things seem more of a mystery. New observations of Mg2+ and Ca2+ interactions with the receptor and its now, 5 different subunits, only seem to raise more questions and totally screw up the tiny bit I thought I did know about modulation.[/QUOTE
I did notice taking some with(not after) some mdma/X that I had a pretty noticeably excitative peak of effects and a headache after immediately afterwards.
 
Right now, looking at some papers on excitotoxicity and NMDA receptors and the more recent ones don't really help to explain anything for certain and just make things seem more of a mystery. New observations of Mg2+ and Ca2+ interactions with the receptor and its now, 5 different subunits, only seem to raise more questions and totally screw up the tiny bit I thought I did know about modulation.

Might you tell me at which papers you looked at? I try to get some more (actual) knowledge (or at least hypothesises) about the NMDAstuff...
 
This seems very bizarre. Is this because pharma industry can't make money with piracetam? If you have any info or experience about combing the two substances please feel free to post here.

Piracetam potentiates all stimulants in correlation with the piracetam dosage. It also gets stronger the longer you've been taking piracetam. It makes stimulants uncomfortable. It also potentiates entactogens and psychedelics, not necessarily in good ways either. I think someone who wanted to experiment with the combination should only try it occasionally. OTOH, regular dosing of piracetam weaks dissociatives significantly, to the point where they are totally ineffective. Maybe if someone was addicted to Ketamine, Methoxetamine or DXM, that would help them stop using the drug.
 
Piracetam potentiates all stimulants in correlation with the piracetam dosage. It also gets stronger the longer you've been taking piracetam. It makes stimulants uncomfortable. It also potentiates entactogens and psychedelics, not necessarily in good ways either. I think someone who wanted to experiment with the combination should only try it occasionally. OTOH, regular dosing of piracetam weaks dissociatives significantly, to the point where they are totally ineffective. Maybe if someone was addicted to Ketamine, Methoxetamine or DXM, that would help them stop using the drug.

How do you know that it makes stimulants uncomfortable? What gets stronger with piracetam?
 
I'd imagine because combinations are for several reasons hardly ever researched and that they're both indicated for similar disorders, so why be on both.
 
I would be somewhat concerned that Piracetam might accelerate the development of sensitization and tolerance, if indeed a) Piracetam is an NMDA receptor agonist[1] and/or induces long-term potentiation and b) the theory that the development of sensitization and/or tolerance is mediated by the activation of NMDA receptors which is behind the idea of using magnesium/dxm/memantine etc. to slow tolerance. (If the theory is true, I think it isn't the entire story -- 5-ht6 receptors are clearly also involved, and I suspect it is still further complicated.) There is some empirical evidence to support this theory.[2] Here's an abstract:

The present study evaluated in mice the possible modification of psychostimulant methamphetamine (MET) effects by co-administration of piracetam (PIR) and the development of behavioural sensitisation to the psychostimulant in the case of combined treatment. On the Day 1 mice were randomly allocated into 4 groups and control open field test was performed. On the Day 7, after 5 days without treatment, mice were intraperitoneally adiministered: a) saline; b) MET 2.5 mg/kg/day; c) PIR 300 mg/kg/day; d) MET+PIR. These doses were repeated for 6 following days. On the Day 14 the acute “challenge” dose of MET 2.5 mg/kg was given to all groups and locomotor activity was measured. On the Day 21, after 6 days of withdrawal, MET challenge was repeated. Data were analysed using two-way ANOVA and Bonferroni post-test. Significant increase in locomotion was recorded in mice treated with acute doses of MET+PIR compared with animals treated with MET (p<0.05). The increased locomotor responses to MET challenge doses (a sign of behavioural sensitisation) after the repeated treatment were more pronounced in animals pre-treated with MET+PIR than in those pre-treated with just PIR or MET (p<0.01 and p<0.001). Piracetam in our experiment enhanced acute effects of methamphetamine as well as development of sensitisation to its stimulatory effects. Background of these pharmacological drug-drug interactions remains unclear. Although clinically piracetam itself shows minimal adverse effects and toxicity, its combination with methamphetamine could worsen the negative drug abuse consequences.

Assuming that the process of sensitization to the stimulatory effects is closely connected to increases in tolerance to the rewarding effects, the combination might increase tolerance. One study found that people addicted to cocaine increased their cocaine usage when given daily doses of piracetam (no wonder it shows up as a cutting agent so often!).[3]

Another curiosity, unrelated to the above, is the fact that while piracetam has no antipsychotic activity on its own except in extremely high doses, it modifies the action of other antipsychotics that are co-adminstered.[4] This doesn't always happen in the same direction -- administered before or after haloperidal or fluphenazine, it increases their dopamine blocking effects; administered after sulpride, it also increases its dopamine receptor antagonism; administered before sulpride, it reduces its dopamine blocking ability. Additionally,

Concerning the 1 mg/kg apomorphine test, in which hypothermia was due to presynaptic dopaminergic stimulation [Puech et al., 1978], piracetam increased the overall action of sulpiride and haloperidol but had no influence on the action of fluphenazine which presents a strong affinity for DA-1 receptors. It may thus be supposed that piracetam occupies nonspecific sites and allows a better affinity of haloperidol and suJpiride for dopaminergic receptors. This may be explained by the fact that the pK3 of piracetam (-1.85) is close to that of fluphenazine (3.90) and different from that of sulpiride (8.90) and haloperidol (8.66).

I'm not sure what to make of this but it is certainly interesting.

references:
[1] Kuba, K., Kumamoto, E. 1990. Longterm potentiations in vertebrate synapses: a variety of cascades with common subprocesses. Prog. Neurobiol. 34: 197-269
[2] Machalova, Alena, et al. 2011. Enhancement of psychostimulant effect and development of behavioural sensitisation to methamphetamine in mice by combined treatment with piracetam. Activitas Nervosa Superior Rediviva, 53(1), 27-31.
[3] Kampman K, Majewska MD, Tourian K, et al. A pilot trial of piracetam and ginkgo biloba for the treatment of cocaine dependence. Addictive Behaviors. 2003;28(3):437–448. doi:10.1016/S0306-4603(02)00226-5.
[4] Bourin M, Poisson L, Larousse C. Piracetam Interactions with Neuroleptics in Psychopharmacological Tests. Neuropsychobiology. 1986;16(2-3):93–96. doi:10.1159/000118305.
 
Thanks for the sources, I could see you becoming a valued member of ADD; please keep posting.

Its good that I stopped taking piracetam then, as I also take amphetamine.
 
Piracetam normalizes the glutamate system by restoring NMDA receptor density to optimal levels. In this way it reverses tolerance and age related deficits. This also means that on this basis you get enhanced (/optimal) effects of other drugs. You can see this in mice and rats which are held in lab environment (unnatural envrionments, which probalbly leads to suboptimal baseline health of the animal test subjects / also probably the lab breed is not the healthiest). Here you see NMDA receptor density upregulation in age impaired animal brains. http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/139100. And here you see optimal drug effects when treated additonal with piracetam. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22607774 Or anecdotical evidence in humans https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=70355.

Piracetam is neuroprotective even in the most unhealthy conditions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17523446 Piracetam causing excitotoxicity by excessive glutamate is ridiculous and panick-mogering. Thinking like this causes unhealthy placebo sideeffects :-D

Here is information about this http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/17ffr2/modafinil_piracetam_excitotoxicity/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter from another site:

People who spread that misinformation are underinformed and are making sweeping generalizations without fully understanding the mechanisms at play. There is no evidence that piracetam or other racetams exacerbate excitotoxicity at either the NMDA or AMPA receptor sites. In fact, there is evidence that racetams not only increase the influx of calcium and potassium though the various ion channels to enhance transmission, but also close the channel to protect from too high of concentrations as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9195198

The results suggest that piracetam and GVS-111 suppression of voltage-activated calcium and potassium currents of the neuronal membrane may regulate (both up and down) Ca2+ influx into neurons.

http://ebm.rsmjournals.com/content/early/2012/10/05/ebm.2012.012128

We found that piracetam inhibited native CaV2.2 channels in superior cervical ganglion neurons in a dose-dependent manner

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1059131197800222

This one found that piracetam protected from a known calcium and sodium channel convulsant.

https://asm.confex.com/ipa/2003_Geneva/techprogram/paper_2223.htm

Our results allow to suggest that a desirable profile of action of nootropics should include a selective suppression of slow-inactivatng potassium currents without affecting (or with augmentation of) the fast-inactivating A-current.

So I cannot find any evidence of any racetam exacerbating excitotoxitiy at either the AMPA or NMDA sites. However, there are studies showing that they modulate both the influx and blockage of Ca2+ and K+ through their respective ion channels. They also increase membrane fluidity, which provides other neuroprotective benefits aside from their effects at the ion channels. All evidence points to them being perfectly safe and neuroprotective.

So combining amphetamines with racetams is neuroprotective and reverses tolerance development. :-D This makes it possible to combine stimulants in lower doses with much better effects(better desired effects and less side effects). This is valuable for recreational and therapeutical use.
 
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I didn't suggest it causes "excitotoxicity by excessive glutamate" or anything similar. Indeed, every one of the studies you posted is consistent with both the theory I suggested and the studies I cited in support of that theory. Sensitization and subsequent tolerance are not caused by neurotoxicity and are not manifestations of neurotoxicity. It could absolutely be the case that the piracetam + amphetamine combination is simultaneously less neurotoxic than amphetamine by itself, more subjectively potent than amphetamine by itself, and more tolerance-promoting than amphetamine by itself. Indeed, those latter two qualities tend to go hand in hand. The studies you posted suggesting that piracetam increases NMDA receptor density supports the theory provided that one accepts the assumption that NMDA receptor agonism partly mediates the development of sensitization and tolerance.

I'm sure it isn't the only theory, but I wonder what alternative explanation would account for the finding that piracetam + cocaine leads people to take larger and larger doses of cocaine, or the finding that piracetam + meth increased sensitization to the stimulatory effects of meth?
 
Apologies on bumping a year old thread, it has good info but needs a bit more.


Piracetam normalizes the glutamate system by restoring NMDA receptor density to optimal levels. In this way it reverses tolerance and age related deficits. This also means that on this basis you get enhanced (/optimal) effects of other drugs.

From some research I've done, a lot of people seem to experience positive cognitive effects while racetams are in their system. However once they are off of them, there cognitive benefits are gone. Once you stop taking them, do some of the beneficial effects remain? For example taking racetams monday to thursday your off stimulants/downers days, and not taking them Fri/Sat/Sun your party days? i.e. using them not for cognitive enhancement while on them, but more to repair some damage (if there be any) done.

Looking at some personal accounts, people experience mood lift via confidence, verbal fluency, senses enhancement, etc, etc for months to a year, followed to a crash into brain fog. i.e. http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1qc7du/my_piracetam_experience/

To avoid this, cycling seems like a good idea. Also, as drinking on racetams gives you blackouts, not taking them weekends seems like a solid idea? PS, if it normalizes glutamate system, it should be great for GHB recovery?
 
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