Antioxidants and MDMA

[MollyFein74]

Ever since my second time rolling I have always used the antioxidants Vitamin C and E religiously in the hope of reducing or removing any possible neurotoxicity caused by MDMA or methamphetamine or a combo of the two therefore reducing short and long term effects.. I am aware of other antioxidants used, especially ALA however I am yet to use it. I don't post/pre load with any other supplements besides magnesium to aid in jaw clenching/chewing.

I have never experienced a comedown apart from my first time rolling which I attribute to a combination of piperazine, amphetamine/meth and MDxx rather than no antioxidant use. However, I have rolled once for 8 weeks in a row (I do not reccomend as it is wreckless), the first 3 being clean (tested )what I suspect were MDEA, then MDxx+Meth, MDxx+Meth + 1 point meth, MDxx+Meth, not sure as the second and last time consuming a pill I have not personally tested but may have been MDMA or tfmPP I had smoked bud a few hours before and was still pretty high so may have had somethign to do with it and finally MDMA - I did not experience a comedown with any of these combos, not even the so called comedown from hell from meth+MDxx and that was the hardest I have ever rolled. Taking into account the combos used, frequency and lack of serotonin precusor supps, it comes down to either I am lucky I have a strong serotonin system or the antioxidants have done their job or a combo of the two.

Heres my antioxidant use when rolling.

Pre-load
Vit E: 250mg of Vitamin E on Thursday and Friday. 1000mg on Saturday morning split, 250mg in the morning and 500 2.5 hours before Rolling.
Vit C: The reccomended dose listed on most sites is around 500-2000mg however I pre load with 3000mg 1.5 hour before rolling.

During
Some people believe that Vitamin C affects their roll due to monoamines having reduced bioavilibility in an acidic stomahc and a the more acidic the blood the faster monoamines are excreted through urine. Due to this I sometimes take nothing, but when I do I only take 1000mg 3 hours after dropping first roll. Vitamin C is water soluble and therefore is excreted fairly quickly through urination/sweating.

Post
Vit E: 1000mg after rolling, on average 4 hours after last dose sometimes more or less. Followed by 250mg before bed.
Vit C: Initally 4000mg. Followed by 500mg 3 Hours Later, 250mg 3 and 6 hours later.

The post load dose for the Vitamin C is a lot higher than listed on most places, however again Vitamin C is water soluble and not stored. It is quite hard to overdose on Vitamin C, Vitamin E on the other hand is fat soluble therefore is stored in fat cells and dosing is not required as often.

Who here uses antioxidants, how much and do you think they have an impact of reducing or preventing neurotoxicity? Have you noticed any difference in regards to comedowns or rollign sicne using?

 

[meloen1]

Normally I preload with 300mg vitamin E and 1000mg vitamin C before rolling, and the same doses as soon as I get home (I roll at parties).
The 2 times i rolled at home I take 500mg vitamin C every hour as well.

I read ALA is increadibly effective at preventing damage, however it is excreted extremely fast. So I was thinking, maybe I should take a ALA extended release capsule just before rolling, if they exist...

 

[futura2012]

Just out of interest Molley what are your supp choices based on?

Is this personal choice from experience etc or suggestions from say a source such as Bluelight or Rollinbalz etc?

Have you tried rolling without any supps and noticed any changes?

I dont roll myself anymore but suffer from E abuse issues and all info about supps from peoples experience etc is valued.

I am always on the look out for combinations and good theory advice that will help me.

Currently I take Omega 3, Krill Oil, Magnesium.

I am looking into Piracetam/Choline and Lithium

I was also recomended a Neuro tablet from Holand & Barret in UK.

I currently dont take any vitamins other than in a multi vitamin format but I am interested to hear how you get on with and why you take those high doses of vitamins.

 

[MollyFein74]

Yes I have read ALA is very effective but short acting like vitamin C, I may start Pre and post loading with it from now on and may even fill up a capsule with it and bring it along with me to have mid-roll due to the short half life, although I read it is both water and fat soluble? Not sure about whether they come in XR though.

Future, my supp choices are based on findings that I have come across while researching MDMA, I remember reading up on MDMA a few hours before the last minute decide to have my first roll and came across MDMA causes oxidase stress due to free radicals and is the source of neurotoxicity, I thought to myself antioxidants could probably prevent that, looked it up and found antioxidant use is very common to combat the neurotoxicity. I use vitamin c and e as they first and foremost have been shown to reduce or prevent MDMA or Methamohetamine neurotoxicity due in scientific studies which makes sense and is recommended in Pre and post loading supps across most if not all websites. I haven't tried rolling on MDMA alone without any supplements apart from the first time which was a mix of pipes, MDMA and meth and I don't plan on rolling without using antioxidants again so I can't really say if they do make a difference. In regards to antioxidants being of any use to your problems from e abuse I can't imagine them being of much use as they really only prevent neurotoxicity/neuron damage from occurring, not reversing it hence the reason for my use to prevent neurotoxicity from occurring. I would recommend continuing to take the supps you listed, vitamin e and c wouldn't hurt to take but won't have much effect - however I have come across a few times that vitamin C is needed for serotonin production however you are most likely getting enough from your diet and multi vitamin however it wouldn't hurt to take extra and receive the other benfeits it brings. Eating a diet with a high tryptophan content or supplementing with tryptophan will provide your body with the raw material to produce serotonin and should get you feeling better (I am assuming depression from the e abuse). I personally while majority of others would recommend 5HTP but I would prefer tryptophan.

 

[futura2012]

Future, my supp choices are based on findings that I have come across while researching MDMA, I remember reading up on MDMA a few hours before the last minute decide to have my first roll and came across MDMA causes oxidase stress due to free radicals and is the source of neurotoxicity, I thought to myself antioxidants could probably prevent that, looked it up and found antioxidant use is very common to combat the neurotoxicity. I use vitamin c and e as they first and foremost have been shown to reduce or prevent MDMA or Methamohetamine neurotoxicity due in scientific studies which makes sense and is recommended in Pre and post loading supps across most if not all websites.

I guess its pretty much the same for all of us really. I guess a mix of web research, forum debate/chat and your own experiences. I will use some of your theories above to read up on it. Cheers for that.

I haven't tried rolling on MDMA alone without any supplements apart from the first time which was a mix of pipes, MDMA and meth and I don't plan on rolling without using antioxidants again so I can't really say if they do make a difference.

Probably quite a difficult thing to measure really. However based on your research above certainly not a harmful or bad thing to do. Measuring the benefits of taking or not would actually be a very difficult thing to measure. it would almost have to be done in a clinical trial type setting to truly measure.

In regards to antioxidants being of any use to your problems from e abuse I can't imagine them being of much use as they really only prevent neurotoxicity/neuron damage from occurring, not reversing it hence the reason for my use to prevent neurotoxicity from occurring. I would recommend continuing to take the supps you listed, vitamin e and c wouldn't hurt to take but won't have much effect - however I have come across a few times that vitamin C is needed for serotonin production however you are most likely getting enough from your diet and multi vitamin however it wouldn't hurt to take extra and receive the other benfeits it brings.

I am not entirely sure myself. Like you say taking wont hurt. Reading more may point me further in the right direction. thanks for the heads up on this.

Eating a diet with a high tryptophan content or supplementing with tryptophan will provide your body with the raw material to produce serotonin and should get you feeling better (I am assuming depression from the e abuse). I personally while majority of others would recommend 5HTP but I would prefer tryptophan.

Totally agree about the diet. I read that everywhere including all the anxiety forums not connected to drug abuse. I have been recommended Tryptophan with another precursor instead of 5HTP. Is this choice from your own experiences or resarch based?

Cheers for getting back to me with the info here.

 

[F1n1shed]

It definitely won't hurt you, the more anti oxidants the better but honestly i bet they aren't doing much against mdma neurotoxicity. This is probably one of the most toxic drugs for the brain, more so than methamphetamine. Especially when people take 3+ pills in a night which is very common. The issues with long term effects come with running on low serotonin, anti oxidants may help reduce toxic damage that happens in the axon terminals but no matter what you will be running on a dumbed down serotonin system. Transporters will be lost, receptors will definitely be down regulated and the neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine will be at extremely low levels. You may feel normal after a week or so, but you are probably only at 35% recovery of neurotransmitters who knows how long it takes for them to fully come back (or get near base line). I've had plenty of fun with mdma but to me this shit is seriously not worth it. It made schooling so much more difficult, word and memory recall was out the window, cognitive thinking was out. My emotions were retarded, meaning they were all over the place and it generally made me a more sensitive person. All of these things + more for 1 epic night.. not worth it imo.

 

[demon cleaner]

Here's my two cents worth

After reading for hours into supplements & MDMA use I've come to the following conclusions:

I preload and postload with:
-ALA
-ALCAR
-green tea extract
-l theanine
-l tyrosine (post, very useful)
-vitamine c
-multi vitamins
-magnesium
-omega 3
-piracetam (yes!)
-st johns wort (very nice for comedown and following days) I prefer it over 5htp

Of course my friends think I'm crazy when they see all I bash prior to a rave and after it, but it does help. But remember, the only key to safe MDMA use is spacing out the rolls and taking long breaks. And of course healthy lifestyle.

PS: if you are using psychedelics don't take the vitamins

 

[MollyFein74]

futura, your right infact it is almost impossible to have a solid answer as to whether it is making a difference or not, im going by the few studies done on antioxidant use preventing mdma induced neurotoxicity and the simple logic of high dose antioxidants seem to be the logical choice to combat neurotoxicity if the mechanism is through oxidative stress/excess free radical production - on paper it works but again unless I was being monitored like a lab rat theres no way to know however it takes a mere few seconds of my time to use them and could be potentially saving me. I think more studies on MDMA/Methamphetamine neurotoxicity should be undertaken as the drug will be around forever and is used by millions globally.

In regards to the tryptophan over 5HTP use, im skeptical about 5HTPs effective although I haven't personally used each. I've done a bit of research on it, not complaining to be an expert or know it all but ive read varying reports as to whther it actually does make much of a difference in regards to restoring serotonin levels at the same time whether or not it did I wouldn't feel safe myself using it as from what I believe it can convert to serotonin in other parts of the body besides the brain where we are trying to target...ie, converting in the blood and acting as a growth factor on the heart leading to problems after long term use, I also believe it has some role in bone structure or osteroporosis development correct me if im wrong, aswell as that I believe if 5HTP is used after rolling when serotonin levels are low it interupts with the natural process of receptor re-upregulation; the way I see it is when you roll you deplete your serotonin aswell as cause 5ht receptor downregulation, after the roll when your brain is low in 5ht plus in combination with downregulated receptors, taking into account the bodys constant want for homeostasis, the brain upregulates serotonin receptors due to the low levels to help compensate thus returning, or atleast attempting to, the amount of 5ht receptors before rolling... the brain also returns tryptophan hydroxylase acivity to normal and serotonin is produced - if 5htp was introduced allowing serotonin to be produced when levels are low and recptors are low, the body will not upregulate the receptors back to normal as there is serotonin being produced. Again, thats just a THEORY im not saying its true and everyone will have their own view, Im basing this all on what i have read and researched along with common sense. Tryptophan on the other hand is converted firstly to 5HTP by tryptophan hydroxlase (this being the rate limiting factor) and then to serotonin - this process is much slower but also to me feels much more natural+doesn't pose the health risks that have been assumed with 5HTP consumption. Again, more solid research to provide reliable answers is needed before any real conclusiosn should be drawn.

demon cleaner, I personally don't use tyrosine as its only a precusor for dopamine/noepiniprhine which is replenshed fairly quickly without supplementing aswell as being more availible then serotonin - hence why meth can be used daily etc whereas MDMA drains majority serotonin quickly. I do hear people say never to use tyrosine after MDMA as it increases neurotoxicity due to more dopamine being availible to be oxidised which is the reason I don't

 

[futura2012]

however it takes a mere few seconds of my time to use them and could be potentially saving me.

Of course I totally agree with you. I dont think anyone has to be declared scientist to experiment a little with supps. I am sure a lot of what you are doing has its benefits.

Put it this way I wish I was doing this type of thing back in the 90s I am sure I would be in a different place than I am now.

I wouldn't feel safe myself using it as from what I believe it can convert to serotonin in other parts of the body besides the brain where we are trying to target...ie, converting in the blood and acting as a growth factor on the heart leading to problems after long term use,

Many countries it is prescription only. There will be a very valid reason for this.

Serotonin syndrome from it seems low risk but a possibility. Also interaction with certain antidepressants is also an area for concern.

The science of 5HTP is pretty complex. I suspect some of the users on ADD would have some interesting 2cents to add. A lot of what I read in ED is sometimes a little speculative and misinformed.

I am not for or against it at the moment I just lack the true deep knowledge to truly advise people on what to do with it.

I have tried 5HTP and have never felt any adverse effects from it. However, I never felt adverse effects from Ecstasy in the 90s LOL.

if 5htp was introduced allowing serotonin to be produced when levels are low and recptors are low, the body will not upregulate the receptors back to normal as there is serotonin being produced. Again, thats just a THEORY im not saying its true and everyone will have their own view, Im basing this all on what i have read and researched along with common sense.

As I read it I think First Bad Comedowns theory is along these lines. It makes sense if the transport required is not there to transport it why the need for more of it?

My experience so far of a 1 year long term comedown is 5HTP appears to as done nothing.

Tryptophan on the other hand is converted firstly to 5HTP by tryptophan hydroxlase (this being the rate limiting factor) and then to serotonin - this process is much slower but also to me feels much more natural+doesn't pose the health risks that have been assumed with 5HTP consumption. Again, more solid research to provide reliable answers is needed before any real conclusiosn should be drawn.

100% agreement with this statement. It is risky to obtain some knowledge and then fill in the gaps. The metabolizm of the body is highly complex. We are all different for a start. A lot of the research is carried out on animals so you cant always draw solid conclusions from this.

demon cleaner, I personally don't use tyrosine as its only a precusor for dopamine/noepiniprhine which is replenshed fairly quickly without supplementing aswell as being more availible then serotonin - hence why meth can be used daily etc whereas MDMA drains majority serotonin quickly. I do hear people say never to use tyrosine after MDMA as it increases neurotoxicity due to more dopamine being availible to be oxidised which is the reason I don't

This also seems like a valid theory I think the same is also why you can take coke everyday.

 

[Neuroprotection]

as you state, vitamin c is water soluble, so a better alternative would be vitamin c ester, a fat soluble form, ascorbic acid bound by an ester bond to a fatti acid like palmitic acid.
Also use other antioxidents, and try to avoid drug combinations as they will eventually take their tole on the neurons.. by depleating natural antioxidant defences and loss of neurotransmitter. Alpha lypoic acid is a good antioxidant, able to scavinge many types of free radicals without forming toxic congigers with mdma metabolites, unlike acetyl cysteine and glutathione.
Vitamin e is an exalent antioxidant that works along with vitamin c forming an antioxidant chane. However, most vitamin e suplemants are mainly a type called alpha tocothirol, which has limited ability to penetrate cell membranes. A superia form is delta tocotrienol, a cell permeable potent antioxidant with strong neuroprotective effects.
Extra antioxidents you can add, particularly just before roling are ubiquinol (reduces vitamin c and e back to their active form after they have donated electrons), pqq (protects mitochondria, potent antioxidant, and works with ubiquinol to reverce energy depletion induced by drugs and toxins)
It might also be good to keep cool, hydrated and take b vitamin complex and 5htp to replenish lost neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine.
finally use of an NSAID like asparin or ibuprophen while roling may reduce neuronal inflammation and asociated oxidative stress, as well as reducing side effects of mdma like head akes