AMT + MDMA = serotonin syndrome?

[ros1816]

Ive got my hands on some AMT. If Im having a bad time on a psychedelic or want to change my mood a bit I will often have some MDMA. However, I have heard that taking MDMA when on AMT (even if say 6 hours in) can cause seretonin syndrome and death. This is apparently because both act powerfully on the 5ht2a receptor.

I have been experimenting with Moclobemide/Aurix (a pharmaceutical MAOI with no purging or dietary complications - recommended) and have enough knowledge not to take MDMA for 7 hours after taking Moclobemide, but AMT doesn't contain a MAOI so what would be wrong with taking MDMA when on it?

I take drugs a lot but don't always know what I'm doing. Can someone provide me with clarity.

 

[Solipsis]

The reason it's very dangerous to combine them is not because both act powerfully on the 5HT2A receptor... MDMA, or most notably its metabolite MDA indeed acts on that receptor and is a bit psychedelic but compared to the other effects I'd call that more like a pleasant side effect. AMT has complex action, too... and it is also an empathogen, entheogen, mood enhancer, anti-depressant and stimulant.
Serotonin receptors like that subtype don't really have much to do with serotonin levels, which is mainly what serotonin syndrome is about: excessive levels of serotonin that cannot be regulated safely anymore by the body.
Things that factor in heavily to lead to such a serotonergic crisis are typically a combination of
1) release of endogenous (= natural body stored) serotonin
2) reuptake inhibition of said serotonin, meaning that the regulation via reuptake (kinda like recycling) is being blocked, complicated or disabled.
3) SERT getting hijacked to release serotonin instead of taking it up from the synapse

Both MDMA and AMT are substances that potently release not only serotonin but also several other neurotransmitters, as well as inhibiting reuptake of them. So they potentiate themselves and each other wildly that way meaning that precautions must be taken to avoid a dangerous critical attack like SS.

You will probably also hear people mention that AMT actually is a mild MAOI itself, it is....weak at low doses but exponentially stronger past some dosages. It certainly doesn't help risk-wise but it is not directly the problem here.

Do NOT combine these drugs (AMT and MDMA)! Just keep a few days in between use of them to be sure. AMT is much more than a psychedelic, and as a psychedelic it is an atypical one. It's mood enhancing qualities should make MDMA kind of redundant anyway, just don't try too high a dose of AMT the first time / times you try it and accept how it makes you feel. Don't get yourself into a situation where you'd need MDMA to save you from a bad time. Well, at least with AMT and probably other serotonin reuptake inhibitors like say 5-MeO tryptamines... if the combo is safe, that's your business (it is anyway).
And get very clear on which drugs are dangerous to combine with moclobemide as well, on a sidenote.

 

[Kl519]

I was told not to combine amt and mdma at all, but during that time I had quit mdma for a few years.

It IS a bit redundant anyway. The first half of the trip will feel similar to mdma. It gets real psychedelic later on, so I can see why you'd maybe want to add some mdma there, but like Solipsis said don't do it. When I took it, it was so strong that I didn't combine it with weed, and usually I combine everything with weed. So you don't need to combo amt with anything.

Edit: I'd like to point out that with this substance, I definitely felt a crash/comedown, especially at higher doses. I didn't get nausea or throw up, but I've seen people throw up on it and then they're tripping hard afterwards.

 

[ros1816]

Great, appreciate the clarity!

Is it ok to use valiums or similar (Etizolam per se) to get to sleep say 12-14 hours after taking AMT?

Solipsis, are you also saying that MDMA is also a problem when taken in close proximity to 5-meo-DALT or 5-meo-DiPT (two substances I have recently got hold of but am yet to try)? It's not a problem on the same scale but is still a problem?

Another point of clarification - on two separate occasions I have taken MDMA 7 hours after taking Moclobemide (+4aCo). This seems to have had no negative impact - does that sound logical?

Thank you

 

[Transform]

Personally I would expect the MAOI properties of aMT to be the key risk in this combination.

Whatever the cause I would certainly not attempt it.

Moclobemide is rapidly metabolised and may be totally eliminated after just 6 hours, or at least mostly. Not a combo I would risk still but it's understandable that you might have gotten away with this.

 

[Solipsis]

The MAOI properties of AMT are thought to be on par with those of amphetamine at average AMT dosages are they not? IMO it is probably a combination of actions of these two drugs that feed back into each other. If it were only the MAOI or monoamine reuptake inhibition you may get away with some of that, but with AMT and MDMA together I'd just expect way too much complex interaction... the result being that things may spiral out of control.

And on that note: 5-MeO tryptamines are probably not quite as dangerous to combine with MDMA, but I'd still expect a fair chance of negative interactions beginning along the lines of overstimulation, hypertension etc.

As always: just under the "danger zone" it will most likely look like what people will want to call 'synergy', it is always hard to tell where the line is between a lot (of fun indeed) and too much. So my advice is to not tempt fate hanging around those lines, but if you want to push the limit do it with something that will result in extremer experiences without the health risks associated here.