Amphetamine inducing psychosis.

[X11400]

Does amphetamine or its methylated derivative directly induce psychosis in healthy/schizophrenic individuals (in therapeutic to recreational dosage ranges) and are there any studies that could help guide me to the truth of the matter.

Almost forgot: By induce in “neurotypicals”/schizophrenics I mean does the pharmacological effect of the drug minus overdoses/sleep deprivation/nutrient deprivation directly induce psychosis in these two groups?

Add bipolar.

Almost forgot again. If amphetamine and it’s methylated derivative directly induces psychosis in these individuals irregardless of their brain situation could dosage be a factor and or co administration with a gabergic(fuck alcohol) and/or neuroleptic mitigate these effects?

 

[X11400]

Anxiety is a problem for some people without even psychosis so yeah on that.

 

[Xorkoth]

Dopaminergic stimulants like amphetamine are well-known to exacerbate psychosis, or cause it, especially in those prone to it. Dosage as well as duration under its effects (due to redosing) are both significant factors but I would say if one has schizophrenia or some other psychotic condition, any amphetamine use is playing with fire.

 

[X11400]

Dopaminergic stimulants like amphetamine are well-known to exacerbate psychosis, or cause it, especially in those prone to it. Dosage as well as duration under its effects (due to redosing) are both significant factors but I would say if one has schizophrenia or some other psychotic condition, any amphetamine use is playing with fire.

Check my wording and come back. I’m asking if induction and exacerbation happens independent of sleep deprivation/nutrient deficiencies/hyper stimulation in individuals vulnerable to psychosis.

 

[Gaffy]

No. A healthy dose of amphetamine anywhere from 5 mg to 20mg, just as for methylphenidate, does actually alleviate some of the patients symptoms, in some forms of schizophrenia. Microdoses dmt are known to alleviate schizophrenia as well.

 

[X11400]

No. A healthy dose of amphetamine anywhere from 5 mg to 20mg, just as for methylphenidate, does actually alleviate some of the patients symptoms, in some forms of schizophrenia. Microdoses dmt are known to alleviate schizophrenia as well.

Do you have any sources for any of those claims?

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Check my wording and come back. I’m asking if induction and exacerbation happens independent of sleep deprivation/nutrient deficiencies/hyper stimulation in individuals vulnerable to psychosis.

If you're looking for hard science I doubt you'll find it based on these parameters because it's pretty much impossible to accurately separate the effects of amphetamine and the effects of its changes in your behaviour. For example if for an experiment you give someone amphetamine and they develop psychosis, what scientific method do you think would allow the researchers to tell if psychosis developed from the amphetamine or hyper-stimulation, given that stimulation is itself a direct effect of amphetamine consumption?

You can obviously reduce the chance of things like sleep deprivation by controlling your doses sensibly, but dopamine release is always going to set off all sorts of other reactions in the brain leading to various effects. Trying to draw a line between what counts as a "direct" effect and what doesn't is practically impossible.

 

[X11400]

So what you’re saying is that it has been empirically proven that amphetamine directly induces psychosis in predisposed individuals irregardless of dosage and sleep deprivation.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I am saying there is no scientific method for distinguishing between direct and indirect effects of amphetamine consumption.

 

[dopamimetic]

I think of psychosis as a variety of symptoms that can have very different "personality" depending on the individual and many factors and much more variable than "substance A causes and B treats it". I personally get "hearing voices" symptom from fucking risperidone alone (repeatedly, 1mg being strange, 2mg causing whispers in white noise and more real voices- as docs don't believe it and just up the dosage). Aripiprazole can exacrebate too, which probably is less of a surprise but I still think of 30% dopamine agonism as being too weak as the only cause, as memantine for example being a much stronger agonist does not induce any symptoms at up to 2x the therapeutic dosage. The same for amphetamine, as long as I am not heavily sleep deprived, I don't get any hints of psychosis even from meth, and I tolerate two days despite that laughable diagnosis of "paranoid schizophrenia" I got when abusing the hell out of nmda antagonists (and hid it until all faded away, then only told the doc cause I wanted some emergency aid for the case of re-appearance, as I knew I couldn't quit the dissos instantly.)

So, yeah, amphs and even nmda antags can be anti-psychotic. Dopamine antagonists, opioids, GABAergics can be pro-psychotic.

The why interests me too.

 

[X11400]

I think of psychosis as a variety of symptoms that can have very different "personality" depending on the individual and many factors and much more variable than "substance A causes and B treats it". I personally get "hearing voices" symptom from fucking risperidone alone (repeatedly, 1mg being strange, 2mg causing whispers in white noise and more real voices- as docs don't believe it and just up the dosage). Aripiprazole can exacrebate too, which probably is less of a surprise but I still think of 30% dopamine agonism as being too weak as the only cause, as memantine for example being a much stronger agonist does not induce any symptoms at up to 2x the therapeutic dosage. The same for amphetamine, as long as I am not heavily sleep deprived, I don't get any hints of psychosis even from meth, and I tolerate two days despite that laughable diagnosis of "paranoid schizophrenia" I got when abusing the hell out of nmda antagonists (and hid it until all faded away, then only told the doc cause I wanted some emergency aid for the case of re-appearance, as I knew I couldn't quit the dissos instantly.)

So, yeah, amphs and even nmda antags can be anti-psychotic. Dopamine antagonists, opioids, GABAergics can be pro-psychotic.

The why interests me too.

Maybe certain opioids can be psychotomimetic, but how can gabergics (aside from alcohol) be psychotomimetic considering our best explanations for schizophrenia up to this date describe glutaminergic hypofunction, dopaminergic hyperfunction, and gabergic hypofunction as the genesis of positive symptoms.

 

[themoreyouknow]

I would suppose that GABAergics can induce psychosis due to the many known paradoxical effects occasionally occurring with use.
It is known for example, that in some individuals Benzos can induce sleep problems, restlessness, anxiety and other symptoms normally connected with withdrawal, so a psychotic episode a la Benzo withdrawal doesn’t seem to far off for me.

And as for Amphetamines. I can at attest, that I have had a couple of months, where I abused Amphetamines. I wasn’t going too strong on the doses since I’m very sensible and binges where also very uncommon for me (3-4 times during these months). Nevertheless my „careful“ (ab)use left me with some weird paranoid thoughts, like for example that my bed and clothes were infested with tiny little bugs I couldn’t see or prove.
luckily this state of mind resolved after a few weeks of abstinence and I was able to detect some of the delusions I have had. So for me Amphetamines induced some paranoid/delusional states without heavy abuse.
I should add that I always need WAY LOWER doses of fucking everything, than anyone else I know, so I’m also way more sensitive to side effects than the average consumer.

 

[X11400]

I would suppose that GABAergics can induce psychosis due to the many known paradoxical effects occasionally occurring with use.
It is known for example, that in some individuals Benzos can induce sleep problems, restlessness, anxiety and other symptoms normally connected with withdrawal, so a psychotic episode a la Benzo withdrawal doesn’t seem to far off for me.

And as for Amphetamines. I can at attest, that I have had a couple of months, where I abused Amphetamines. I wasn’t going too strong on the doses since I’m very sensible and binges where also very uncommon for me (3-4 times during these months). Nevertheless my „careful“ (ab)use left me with some weird paranoid thoughts, like for example that my bed and clothes were infested with tiny little bugs I couldn’t see or prove.
luckily this state of mind resolved after a few weeks of abstinence and I was able to detect some of the delusions I have had. So for me Amphetamines induced some paranoid/delusional states without heavy abuse.
I should add that I always need WAY LOWER doses of fucking everything, than anyone else I know, so I’m also way more sensitive to side effects than the average consumer.

All I know is that they do not use amphetamines to stabilize acutely psychotic patients in hospitals, while they use benzodiazepines and neuroleptics to achieve that effect.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Does amphetamine or its methylated derivative directly induce psychosis in healthy/schizophrenic individuals (in therapeutic to recreational dosage ranges) and are there any studies that could help guide me to the truth of the matter.

Almost forgot: By induce in “neurotypicals”/schizophrenics I mean does the pharmacological effect of the drug minus overdoses/sleep deprivation/nutrient deprivation directly induce psychosis in these two groups?

Add bipolar.

Almost forgot again. If amphetamine and it’s methylated derivative directly induces psychosis in these individuals irregardless of their brain situation could dosage be a factor and or co administration with a gabergic(fuck alcohol) and/or neuroleptic mitigate these effects?

If you go to google scholar and type in "amphetamine psychosis sleep deprivation" there are a bunch of papers going back to the 1960s that seem to claim that psychosis is dose dependent separate to effects of sleep deprivation. However, as someone else pointed out it is very difficult to design a study that controls for underlying psychiatric conditions that predispose someone to psychosis - it is only possible to control for people who have previously suffered a psychotic episode without influence of drugs.

This recent study says that psychosis is dose-dependent on people who DO NOT meet critieria for schizophrenia: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/1555603. HOWEVER, nowhere does it address the period of wakefulness experienced by the subjects when they were taking methamphetamine - just that they were taking it.