additional drugs to temper clonazepam withdrawal during a taper

[Kdem]

In a different thread someone talked about non-excitatory drugs.
This is not about psychosis.

For me, clonazepam is not so benzo-like at all. If that makes any sense.

Additional drugs, to contain brain catecholamines (norepinephrine) and glutamate (itself or receptors?).

As opposed to a traditional Ashton style taper.
In other words, a more or less direct taper of clonazepam.

(and not 'slower is better')

Perhaps even reducing corticotropin releasing hormone.
Maybe dampening other hormones as well.

In theory, antipsychotics and antidepressants could be used this way. But in general, these drugs are contra-indicated during 'benzo withdrawal'.

I'm dealing with some very non-GABA issues, interactions between neurotransmitters/hormones as well.

 

[aced126]

I don't understand. Are you in benzo withdrawal? What is clonazepam to you if it's not "benzo-like"?

 

[dopamimetic]

Puh, language barrier?

The withdrawal syndrome from GABAergics is mostly due to too less GABA inhibition and too much glutamate excitation. So things like memantine or gabapentin / pregabalin can help when used correctly.

 

[Kdem]

I don't understand. Are you in benzo withdrawal? What is clonazepam to you if it's not "benzo-like"?

It has all sorts of stimulating and mixed properties. Completely unlike diazepam, temazepam, oxazepam.

 

[dopamimetic]

Clonazepam does, however, affect glutamate decarboxylase activity. It decreases release of acetylcholine in the feline brain[104] and decreases prolactin release in rats. In addition, clonazepam decreases the utilization of 5-HT (serotonin) by neurons[96][97] and has been shown to bind tightly to central-type benzodiazepine receptors.

Benzodiazepines acted via micromolar benzodiazepine binding sites as Ca2+ channel blockers and significantly inhibit depolarization-sensitive calcium uptake in experimentation on rat brain cell components.

Some of these benzos do have much more subtle differences to each other than I'd thought. We have alprazolam with dopamine agonistic properties, some which are adenosine reuptake inhibitors, and here one with gabapentinoid-like activity...

 

[Kdem]

Do not all benzodiazepines affect glutamate decarboxylase ? Given what this enzyme does ?
That it has an effect on acetylcholine is all too obvious ...

Would you happen to have any practical suggestions, considering my questions ? Diazepam and clonazepam, as different as night and day.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Benzodiazepines differ in their effect, but it's mainly based on what subunits of GABA A receptors they affect. As far as I know they don't really affect much (generally) elsewhere, so I would say that benzos don't affect glutamate decarboxylase as a rule.

I don't really understand the question either. Why would you want to suppress hormones or use some weird drugs? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. If you're in benzo withdrawal, then I guess NMDA antagonists could prove useful to you. Try DXM if you don't have access to others. Memantine works well too if you can get that. You can try using other GABAergics like phenibut or baclofen to taper, but apparently you don't want to do that. Even though CT withdrawal from benzos is far worse on the body and mind than tapering. Honestly I'd recommend just following a diazepam taper plan and get off benzos slowly but surely.

 

[Kdem]

Anyone ?

 

[dopamimetic]

Phenibut might have potential considering that it's quite similar to pregabalin etc. (they're actually being called 'gabapentinoids' now) - just make sure that you taper it slowly.

 

[Kdem]

Thank you. Phenibut is quite similar to baclofen, isn't it ? Although I am aware that there are differences.
A comparison between both molecules is interesting ...

I have access to some baclofen. Do you think it could work and if it is a 'gabapentiniod' ?

 

[dopamimetic]

Even though phenibut is structurally very close to baclofen, they are quite different in their mode of action with phenibut having only minor GABA-B agonistic properties ... seems like the Cl makes the difference.

Phenibut is a close structural analogue of GABA, as well as of baclofen (b-(4-chlorophenyl)-GABA), pregabalin (b-isobutyl-GABA), and GABOB (b-hydroxy-GABA). Originally thought to act as a selective GABAB receptor agonist, phenibut has since been found to act preferentially as a blocker of a2d subunit-containing voltage-gated calcium channels, similarly to gabapentin and pregabalin. As such, phenibut is a gabapentinoid.

Phenibut & Baclofen

 

[Epiper888]

Phenibut and gabapentin work in similar properties, at least I think they work on calcium channels. I know gabapentin works on alpha-2-delta, not sure if phenibut does the same. If your just having bad anxiety then gabapentin and its stronger cousin pregablin are effective. I'm no expert on this, s anything that may be incorrect go ahead and correct me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Anyone ?

The set of YOUR receptors affected by clonazepam are going to be 'aggravated' by any taper.

List of things that help:

Lemon Balm inhibits GABA Transaminase and I can attest that it works to help maintain higher levels of circulating GABA.

L-glutamine (helps with GABA synthesis in most -- can be excitatory in some.

Kava Kava (as long as it is certified root -- no liver issues (unless you have liver disease or consume lots of alcohol) -- has a reverse tolerance mode of action, increases GABA receptor density and/or binding affinity -- may not seem to be working at first

Magnesium through oral supplementation and Epsom Salt soaks -acts directly(recent evidence) and indirectly on GABA system to calm both body and brain

Bacopa Monnieri --

apparently an adaptogen that supports return to homeostasis for serotonin, dopamine, and GABA systems

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746283/ -- indicates down-regulation of upregulated 5HT2C receptors

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3306740/ -- indicates upregulation of GABA receptor complex after downregulation by pilocarpine (mice)

"we conclude from our studies that Bacopa monnieri and Bacoside-A treatment potentiates a therapeutic effect by reversing the alterations in general GABA, GABAA, GABAB receptor binding, GABAA receptor subunits, GAD and CREB gene expression that occur during epilepsy, resulting an increased GABA mediated inhibition in the over stimulated cerebral cortex neurons."

I would recommend a slow kpin taper -- with 2mg 3 times a day diazepam to control w/d plus the above herbs

then taper the diazepam

I would recommend a clonazepam taper

what is dose of kpin currently (mg and x daily)