None of them agree with me either. However, MAOI's are the only ones that work on me at all! Everything else makes me a bit stoned and sleepy at best - and many make smoking a joint a devastating, poleaxing and most unfortunate event. I mean, I like being stoned as much as the next person, but there are limits... I like being able to at least walk without help!
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N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand
A Second Look at MAOI's?
- Thread starter Supermex
- Start date
gearjammer
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It is interesting how subjective experiences with the same substances can differ between people, isn't it?
Selegiline is just an alkylated levometh molecule. Pretty chilled out little structure.
gearjammer
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Your story reminds me of mine a lot, friend.
Why were you never given a higher dose of tranylcypromine?
Can you get selegiline where you are?
EDIT: Assuming you are in the UK, when you say speed are you talking powdered methamp or powdered amphetamine?
ThePharmacist4925
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One girl I knew swore she never felt better than the year she was on an MAOI. Make me want to try one of them instead of all this potentially useless shit they have me on.
I will have a go with Harmine, if possible. Like the name, if nothing else! As for Parnate, it helps, but only in large doses. The NHS restricts its being prescibed at more than 3 pills per day... which has virtually no effect on me whatsoever. I've taken eight today, which would be the maximum dose for my weight (100 kg, ahem!), and that has only just been enough to stop me sleeping all day, nowhere near enough energy or enthusiasm to do more than this. Very half heartedly. One of the bad things about MAOI's was the negative, almost hysterical wave of propaganda that several big drug companies unleashed back in the 80's, when pushing their latest grossly overpriced SSRI's and other crap - so I was told by a friend who worked for one. MAOI's are of course almost 'kitchen sink' technology to produce, cheaply and probably out of patents etc. The same happened with Amphetamines, which the NHS will not prescrribe at all nowadays.... bastards! I take whatever somes along, preferably the inaccurately named 'base' (white, powderered, probably sulphate of chloride) and Methampatamine which is usually pink, probably because it is produced from Sudafed pills which are red... not so good for me, but far, far better than nothing.
gearjammer
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Whoa, when you say the NHS will not prescribe amphetamine, does that mean that you could get them under private health care cover, or is the NHS in charge of authorizing drugs as well, like the TGA do in Oz?
If I couldn't get pharmaceutical dexamphetamine off friends, I would be in much the same situation as you, using street amps. Interesting to hear about meth in your neck of the woods. From what I've heard it was pretty hard to come by over there, but I suspect most powdered amphetamines that can be smoked would be meth. Getting racemic or dextrorotary amphetamines into a smokeable form is a fair bit trickier from what I understand, something about sulfates being far more hygroscopic than hydrochloride and or unstable at room temp? Not sure but like you mentioned, all the people I have talked to from the UK speak of smoking the oddly named base
Believe me, if we could get smokeable amphet sulfate like you do in the UK, I would be self medicating already! Here, you'd almost definitely need to be or know a good organic chemist to get illicit amphetamines, such is this city's preference for meth
What you say about SSRIs in the '80s and '90s is bang on. My dad is around your age and suffered a catastrophic head injury in '87. I honestly have no idea what he was on after that to treat the subsequent depression he has lived with ever since, but I know that he's been on a slew of SSRIs and SNRIs since, and he raised his eyebrows when I mentioned tranylcypromine and phenelzine, so he has obviously been brainwashed into thinking that MAOIs are outdated and ineffective. If ever I'd met a candidate for tranylcypromine or tranylcypromine with dexamphetamine, it was my dad 20 years ago.
I thank my lucky stars I live in Australia. We have access to nearly all the options the UK and US do for treating ADHD and depression; the only two drugs I cannot get here that interest me are Desoxyn (methylamphetamine hydrochloride) and tianeptine. Bupropion is only permitted for smoking cessation which kinda sucks but most depressed people smoke, from my personal experience. However, our safety net and the federal Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme means that with my concession card, I can afford to try stuff like Selegiline and Moclobemide which would both be more expensive in the UK, the latter of which isn't even available in the US.
I cannot fathom why the NHS would put an upper limit of presumably 80mg a day on tranylcypromine. It is a drug of very low abuse potential in my view, albeit more easy to abuse than other MAOIs, but what the boffins in regulatory institutions do not realize is that they indubitably force people like you and I to seek out illicit drugs because they so tightly restrict the legal options. It is not uncommon in literature to find people prescribed as much as 150 or even 200mg of tranylcypromine a day. I am sorry your efforts to legally treat your depression seem to be stonewalled by red tape.
If I couldn't get pharmaceutical dexamphetamine off friends, I would be in much the same situation as you, using street amps. Interesting to hear about meth in your neck of the woods. From what I've heard it was pretty hard to come by over there, but I suspect most powdered amphetamines that can be smoked would be meth. Getting racemic or dextrorotary amphetamines into a smokeable form is a fair bit trickier from what I understand, something about sulfates being far more hygroscopic than hydrochloride and or unstable at room temp? Not sure but like you mentioned, all the people I have talked to from the UK speak of smoking the oddly named base
Believe me, if we could get smokeable amphet sulfate like you do in the UK, I would be self medicating already! Here, you'd almost definitely need to be or know a good organic chemist to get illicit amphetamines, such is this city's preference for meth What you say about SSRIs in the '80s and '90s is bang on. My dad is around your age and suffered a catastrophic head injury in '87. I honestly have no idea what he was on after that to treat the subsequent depression he has lived with ever since, but I know that he's been on a slew of SSRIs and SNRIs since, and he raised his eyebrows when I mentioned tranylcypromine and phenelzine, so he has obviously been brainwashed into thinking that MAOIs are outdated and ineffective. If ever I'd met a candidate for tranylcypromine or tranylcypromine with dexamphetamine, it was my dad 20 years ago.
I thank my lucky stars I live in Australia. We have access to nearly all the options the UK and US do for treating ADHD and depression; the only two drugs I cannot get here that interest me are Desoxyn (methylamphetamine hydrochloride) and tianeptine. Bupropion is only permitted for smoking cessation which kinda sucks but most depressed people smoke, from my personal experience. However, our safety net and the federal Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme means that with my concession card, I can afford to try stuff like Selegiline and Moclobemide which would both be more expensive in the UK, the latter of which isn't even available in the US.
I cannot fathom why the NHS would put an upper limit of presumably 80mg a day on tranylcypromine. It is a drug of very low abuse potential in my view, albeit more easy to abuse than other MAOIs, but what the boffins in regulatory institutions do not realize is that they indubitably force people like you and I to seek out illicit drugs because they so tightly restrict the legal options. It is not uncommon in literature to find people prescribed as much as 150 or even 200mg of tranylcypromine a day. I am sorry your efforts to legally treat your depression seem to be stonewalled by red tape.
Ther just HAS to be something very weird and unusual about my body chemistry, as my depression manifests as hypersomnia, anergia and an almost complete lack of drive, motivation or enthusiasm for anything. It has only ever responded to MAOI's which when I was younger were quite effective, but now, at 57, hardly help at all.
Nor do they 'hinder', I have eaten every sort of banned food, and at this very moment am taking a goodly dose of meth on top of 3 Parnate, washed down with 10 or more units of alcohol. No side effects. The only reliable and effective treatment for my depression is Dexedrine, 100 mg/day. And that only works symptomatically, on a daily, short term basis - I have resigned myself to the fact that there is, at present, no actual 'cure', only 'relief'. Medicine has abandoned me, despite constant, futile appeals for help, nobody wants to know, or shows any interest at all. In fact, worse than that, psychiatrists seem to see me as frightening.
And talking of shrinks, there was only ever one who I rather respected, Hannibal Lector. Too good to be true...
Does anyone else remember his wistful speech, when recalling an old friend he had 'had for dinner' once?...
"I ate his liver with Farva beans (broad beans in the UK?), and a bottle of Chianti..." Yum yum.... a robust cheese sauce to top it off, and an avacado starter with oyster sauce would have been perfect! Apparently this line wasn't scripted, Dr Lector just came out with it himself... I admire a psychiatrist who knowws their limits!
Nor do they 'hinder', I have eaten every sort of banned food, and at this very moment am taking a goodly dose of meth on top of 3 Parnate, washed down with 10 or more units of alcohol. No side effects. The only reliable and effective treatment for my depression is Dexedrine, 100 mg/day. And that only works symptomatically, on a daily, short term basis - I have resigned myself to the fact that there is, at present, no actual 'cure', only 'relief'. Medicine has abandoned me, despite constant, futile appeals for help, nobody wants to know, or shows any interest at all. In fact, worse than that, psychiatrists seem to see me as frightening.
And talking of shrinks, there was only ever one who I rather respected, Hannibal Lector. Too good to be true...
Does anyone else remember his wistful speech, when recalling an old friend he had 'had for dinner' once?...
"I ate his liver with Farva beans (broad beans in the UK?), and a bottle of Chianti..." Yum yum.... a robust cheese sauce to top it off, and an avacado starter with oyster sauce would have been perfect! Apparently this line wasn't scripted, Dr Lector just came out with it himself... I admire a psychiatrist who knowws their limits!
I've tried a couple different SSRIs, an SNRI, mirtazapine/a TeCA, moclobemide/a RIMA, tianeptine, and DXM as anti-depressants at various periods in the past.
I have decided to see another wanker with a scriptpad and I was wanting a little bit of input from those who have experience with oldschool MAOIs.
I live in Australia, and unless the psych wants me to try another type of SSRI/SNRI (which I would decline) or Roboxetine, the only routes are Tranylcypromine and Phenelzine. Well I haven't tried Amitriptyline which is the only other a/d I didn't cover (afaik) but I absolutely refuse to take that because of the lethargy Mirtazapine gave me.
From what I've read, it seems as though Tranylcypromine is the better of the two options, not only because Phenelzine is synthed with two toxic chemicals but it also fucks with GABA which I don't want to do.
Conversely, Tranylcypromine is a Dopamine and Norepinephrine releaser, so I'm wanting some input on both tolerance/withdrawal and side effects.
I have never got any withdrawals from the anti-depressants I've been on, and I did cold turkey off some (steady state) stupid high doses (e.g. 240mg duloxetine iirc) and had no withdrawals, and I didn't seem to get many side effects (whereas a lot of people report many issues)
I mean my libido got fucked up on SSRI/SNRIs and Mirtzapine fucked me up the worst but I was pretty well off overall.
Just wanting some input on Tranylcypromine (and Phenelzine) as it seems to be the only viable option.
I have decided to see another wanker with a scriptpad and I was wanting a little bit of input from those who have experience with oldschool MAOIs.
I live in Australia, and unless the psych wants me to try another type of SSRI/SNRI (which I would decline) or Roboxetine, the only routes are Tranylcypromine and Phenelzine. Well I haven't tried Amitriptyline which is the only other a/d I didn't cover (afaik) but I absolutely refuse to take that because of the lethargy Mirtazapine gave me.
From what I've read, it seems as though Tranylcypromine is the better of the two options, not only because Phenelzine is synthed with two toxic chemicals but it also fucks with GABA which I don't want to do.
Conversely, Tranylcypromine is a Dopamine and Norepinephrine releaser, so I'm wanting some input on both tolerance/withdrawal and side effects.
I have never got any withdrawals from the anti-depressants I've been on, and I did cold turkey off some (steady state) stupid high doses (e.g. 240mg duloxetine iirc) and had no withdrawals, and I didn't seem to get many side effects (whereas a lot of people report many issues)
I mean my libido got fucked up on SSRI/SNRIs and Mirtzapine fucked me up the worst but I was pretty well off overall.
Just wanting some input on Tranylcypromine (and Phenelzine) as it seems to be the only viable option.
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Phew! Phenelzine (Nardil) did work as an AD, but the SFX were pretty dire... I mean, I'm no prude, nor easily embarrassed, but being overtaken by a sudden attack of projectile vomiting in the early afternoon, whilst walking down the street, does get you some funny looks - and a wide berth! No special reason for it I could ever see? As a highly experienced, hardnosed drinker, I am well familiar with overwhelming nausea of course, but have always taken great pride in my ability to excuse myself with a nonchalont smile, calmly proceed to some hidden spot, puke my guts up, then return to my friends with a cheery smile, leaving them none the wiser.... but not with Nardil! Also, and potentially far, far worse if you are not single, or have (shudder!) just met someone and spent the night, waking up having just royally shat yourself in your sleep is not merely uncomfortable, but can cause great trouble with relationships, if you don't have a supremely understanding partner! Luckily I am so unattractive these days, that never occured...
Whatever, unattractive or not, you never know, do you? Miracles can happen... so I switched to Parnate, which doesn't work quite as well as an AD, but has had no inconvenient SFX like Nardil IME... occasional nausea, controlled with cyclizine, no BP issues despite my reckless disreguard for all the banned foodstuffs. NB that is me and me alone however, don't anyone else try it!
Whatever, unattractive or not, you never know, do you? Miracles can happen... so I switched to Parnate, which doesn't work quite as well as an AD, but has had no inconvenient SFX like Nardil IME... occasional nausea, controlled with cyclizine, no BP issues despite my reckless disreguard for all the banned foodstuffs. NB that is me and me alone however, don't anyone else try it!
To Gearjammer, appreciate your comments - it sounds as if Australia gets the best of US drug policy, and is fortunately free from any interfernce from the old Mother****er counties interference! Back here, the restrictions and particularly those reguarding any form of stimulant (and let's face it, was a country ever so badly in need of stimulation and enthusiasm!?) have gradually and steadily incresed over the last decades, making my life ever more difficult and restricted, until almost ending it by my own, despairing hand five or so years back. I have no idea why this obsessive paranoia concerning amphetamines occured or even began, but it is certainly centred on the Home Office. Long forgotten is the fact that the Battle of Britain was largely won thanks to Benzedrine (and of course foreign volunteers), I suspect it goes back to the 1960's, when the lyrics of many songs embarrassed government officials, concerned about our world reputation for 'permissiveness'. I strongly suspect that nobody in power ever understood or bothered to listen to 'Mothers Little Helpers' by the Stones, which is about Valium, not amphetamines!
Joking aside, we have no Adderall or equivalent, and there is an official terror of Methamphetamine - you can still buy Psuedoephidrine over the counter in the guise of Sudafed, but Iodine is no longer available! It is all nonsense of course... I have never had a ny answer to my polite enquiries concerning Parnate restriction - the only country in the civilised world which restricts the maximum dose to three measly pills a day! For me, quite a big 100kg chap, the maximum dose would be eight/day, so three (which might be enough for a tiny, geriatric woman) is all but useless... but with judicious use of street amp, which I'm still experimenting with in combination, might be helpful in part. I suppose they are terrified I might use my juniour chemistry set to alter the sidechain, and convert it into amphetamine? Or something that works... groan!
Buprion, or Wellbutrin as it marketed here, is only available as an 'anti-smoking remedy', and not licensed as an antidepressant. I discovered it during my 'researches' into some way out of my depression, and had it prescribed by the 'anti smoking nurse' at my local surgery. To my great surprise and delight, after taking only one I realised I had walked the dogs halfway round the park, and not thought of suicide once! Such help was only temporary alas, for despite desperate appeals to my GP, and earnest promises of good behaviour.... and lying abourt my deadly dangerous smoking habit... it was soon denied me. INcidentally, I was a time served 30 -40 a day man, but after taking Wellbutrin for only a week, with no intention of stopping smoking, I just did... lost interest in it, without even realising. That alone must be a miraculous side effect of the stuff!
As for 'base' that is the common street name for very pure amphetamine, though it almost invariably sold in the sulphate or possibly chloride form. 'Base' would tend to indicate the pure, freshly produced amphetamine in 'amine' form, before it is turned to a soluble salt with HCl or H2SO4, which are snortable or orally ingestible (or injectable). I presume, like cocaine - which is also normally sold in 'salt' form, the 'freebase' form of street Amphetamine Sulphate would be more suitable for smoking purposes? Just a guess, but probably far more volatile at lower temperatures?? Despite decades of indulgence in every way, I have never smoked amphetamine... likely to be 'wasteful' I thought, as well as disgusting to taste..
Joking aside, we have no Adderall or equivalent, and there is an official terror of Methamphetamine - you can still buy Psuedoephidrine over the counter in the guise of Sudafed, but Iodine is no longer available! It is all nonsense of course... I have never had a ny answer to my polite enquiries concerning Parnate restriction - the only country in the civilised world which restricts the maximum dose to three measly pills a day! For me, quite a big 100kg chap, the maximum dose would be eight/day, so three (which might be enough for a tiny, geriatric woman) is all but useless... but with judicious use of street amp, which I'm still experimenting with in combination, might be helpful in part. I suppose they are terrified I might use my juniour chemistry set to alter the sidechain, and convert it into amphetamine? Or something that works... groan!
Buprion, or Wellbutrin as it marketed here, is only available as an 'anti-smoking remedy', and not licensed as an antidepressant. I discovered it during my 'researches' into some way out of my depression, and had it prescribed by the 'anti smoking nurse' at my local surgery. To my great surprise and delight, after taking only one I realised I had walked the dogs halfway round the park, and not thought of suicide once! Such help was only temporary alas, for despite desperate appeals to my GP, and earnest promises of good behaviour.... and lying abourt my deadly dangerous smoking habit... it was soon denied me. INcidentally, I was a time served 30 -40 a day man, but after taking Wellbutrin for only a week, with no intention of stopping smoking, I just did... lost interest in it, without even realising. That alone must be a miraculous side effect of the stuff!
As for 'base' that is the common street name for very pure amphetamine, though it almost invariably sold in the sulphate or possibly chloride form. 'Base' would tend to indicate the pure, freshly produced amphetamine in 'amine' form, before it is turned to a soluble salt with HCl or H2SO4, which are snortable or orally ingestible (or injectable). I presume, like cocaine - which is also normally sold in 'salt' form, the 'freebase' form of street Amphetamine Sulphate would be more suitable for smoking purposes? Just a guess, but probably far more volatile at lower temperatures?? Despite decades of indulgence in every way, I have never smoked amphetamine... likely to be 'wasteful' I thought, as well as disgusting to taste..
Basically, yes. I forgot something else BTW, when taking Nardil, within days I came out with a horrible, itchy rash on my lower arms and shins, which, being me, I promptly reduced to a mass of scabby wounds through furious scratching. That continued in reduced form with Parnate, and has only just gone in the last year. I live on antihistanines!
Seems like MAOIs are safe when used in combination with MDMA as well:
https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=24742
I don't think it is valid to reach that conclusion based on a single report. If you've ever heard of the LD50, you know that only 50% of the animals die at that dose. I wouldn't want to take anywhere near that dose, even though it might not harm everyone who takes it.
Erroneous conclusion. I'd be willing to bet in all LD50 studies, all the animals are either killed or harmed. You're making it out as though 50% of the animals die in a such a test and that the other 50% are perfectly fine, which is a very simple minded thought. Any amount of a substance that kills 50% of the animals will surely be very hazardous to the ones who didn't die.
And look what someone recently said on The Shroomery:
'I was reading reports from people taking Syrian Rue with low MDMA dosage resulting in pleasant experiences. There are reports of people taking too much mdma with the rue as well.'
05/31/15 - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21745845
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Found another individual who's taking an amphetamine in combination with Parnate:
I already take 120mg/day Parnate 60mg/day Dexrdrine so I just need a pinch.
apodicity - 2020 - https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/aucjeg/nmethylcyclazodone_is_pretty_amazing/ek5utrl/
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Well, I found an article that mentions amphetamines in the context of MAOIs and serotonin syndrome, however there is only a single mention of 'amphetamines.' Can someone read this article and explain the significance of amphetamines in it?
Isbister, G. K., Hackett, L. P., Dawson, A. H., Whyte, I. M., & Smith, A. J. (2013). Moclobemide poisoning: toxicokinetics and occurrence of serotonin toxicity. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 56(4), 441–450. doi:10.1046/j.1365-2125.2003.01895.x
Isbister, G. K., Hackett, L. P., Dawson, A. H., Whyte, I. M., & Smith, A. J. (2013). Moclobemide poisoning: toxicokinetics and occurrence of serotonin toxicity. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, 56(4), 441–450. doi:10.1046/j.1365-2125.2003.01895.x
Well, I finally found something that contradicts MRDIGBY's and apodicity's accounts: Death after Combined Dexamphetamine and Phenelzine
tachyphylaxis
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tachyphylaxis
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It's not just "my account"--you can find many articles documenting combination of psychostimulants and MAOIs. It's an established practice. They're small studies and case reports, true, but they're out there.
Of course this has happened. When I started the Dexedrine, it was at 5mg/day, which was actually pretty aggressive given it was on an outpatient basis. There is a remote but non-negligible chance of this happening. To be *perfectly safe*, you'd want to start at 2.5 or even 1.25mg per dose. The doctor prescribing this to me was a psychopharmacology professor at a medical school with a zillion years of experience.
I currently take 120mg/day of Parnate and 75mg/day of Dexedrine, and have been for 4 years. I have been taking an MAOI with Dexedrine for 16 years now, and have never had an adverse event. The rise in BP is no different than if I were taking it without the MAOI.
If there's anyone here with credentials, they could explain it better than I could. There are undoubtedly more deaths than that one case report. Keep in mind that when MAOIs were first used clinically, no one even knew about this, nor the tyramine reaction. People were taking the drugs with no dietary restrictions or anything, and it took a while before someone even made the connection.