A philosophic conversarion on rebels and rebellion.

[Xorkoth]

I agree with that, I don't believe we should be forcing people. I also think at this point we need to move on and begin operating as if everyone had taken full precautionary measures, and allow the people who haven't to bear the cost of that choice. De-prioritize unvaccinated (by choice) covid patients if hospitals have reached capacity and people have to be turned away. I do think we did right by locking it down until people had the chance to protect themselves, because it was a new virus we knew little about that was killing people. But at this point, it's not going away and we have to learn to live with it, like we have with many other diseases.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

The statement insinuates that the only way to protect "collective freedom" (this is a falsehood) is to infringe upon the freedom of the individual who wishes to dissent.

The only reason you agree with this statement now is because you are not among the individuals being discriminated against. But what if you were?

I dunno man. I mean I partially get what you're saying. However I also think feeling discriminated against can be a subjective experience depending on the people with which one surrounds himself or herself.

As a personal example, much of my family and some of my friends are very conservative to the ilk of participating in Evangelical fundamentalism and/or believing outlandish conspiracy theories and such. So when I am at a gathering of extended family or even conversing on social media, I often find myself being ganged up on and discriminated against for my beliefs that getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, socially distancing, and staying home when necessary are the best way to decrease the amount of deaths and hospitalizations of this pandemic.

I live in a red state so I even have to be careful wearing a mask in public because we've all seen the videos online of angry Karens or their husbands freaking out and confronting or spitting on innocent people for wearing masks. That's not to mention the increase in hate crimes committed against Asians in many places in the US.

So in reality, I agree with the Reich statement in question in spite of feeling discriminated against. To keep on topic, isn't that what rebels do?

Dare I ask why you feel the vaccine isn't a good idea? And you are not allowed to mention fear of cardiac arrest since we all now know that we all have to die and therefore you do not fear death.

This line of reasoning has already exposed the ugliness of society, as people have openly mused about locking the unvaccinated into camps and denying them participatory rights in society.

Really think about that statement - freedom to not get sick. Knowing what you know about the real world, does this actually sound feasible to you? Do you really think we're on the cusp of immortality, if only we can just get through this one pesky pandemic?

This one pesky pandemic? Isn't downplaying the severity of it what DJT did in the beginning, which got us into this mess?

I know. Conservatives like to say, "It has a 98% survival rate, so it isn't that bad." Yet when you do the math, 2% of 330,000,000 is more than 6.5 million people. Imagine someone saying 6.5 million Americans dying of a disease is just a pesky pandemic? And that's not even worldwide numbers. So I cannot buy into this type of minimalizing of how dangerous the virus is and has turned out to be.

There will always be another pandemic, another disease, another crises. People get sick and die. This is not a social justice issue that can be tackled and fixed, it's just a fact of life.

Let's not lose our heads over it.

I've seen a lot of the bolded ^ line of reasoning coming from right winged cable news networks. Obviously I don't get my everyday news from these shows but like I said, much of my family and friends do, so unfortunately I have to be exposed to it on occasion. So to throw up our hands and say, "Well, dying is just a fact of life," is IMHO kind of absurd when said death is completely preventable. Yes, everyone dies eventually but I argue that the prevention of mass casualty is in fact a social justice issue that should be tackled. Especially considering the enormous amount of brown people in poor countries who want the vaccine but cannot access it because greedy ol Big Pharma won't release the patents.

Just yesterday I was arguing with my cousin over vaccines and he said, "I believe in God and He has a plan for me and has known how long I will live since before I was born." So I quickly replied, "Oh yeah, so why do you bother wearing a seatbelt? Why do you teach your kids to look both ways before crossing the street?" I mean seriously, saying your life is in God's hands and not caring about dying a preventable miserable death would be considered by many to be at least suicidal, if not delusional. I'm not saying you believe in God or have any religious reasoning for feeling the way you feel. I'm just trying to put things in perspective with other people who have the same belief that they feel discriminated against for being anti-vax.

I hope I have demonstrated that I have not lost my head nor lost my cool with the above response. No name calling or disrespect, really just pure curiosity for why you and others are so adamant about not getting vaxxed the same way we have already been vaxxed for polio, measles, mumps, etc. just to get through public schooling.

 

[Yourbaker]

I dunno man. I mean I partially get what you're saying. However I also think feeling discriminated against can be a subjective experience depending on the people with which one surrounds himself or herself.

As a personal example, much of my family and some of my friends are very conservative to the ilk of participating in Evangelical fundamentalism and/or believing outlandish conspiracy theories and such. So when I am at a gathering of extended family or even conversing on social media, I often find myself being ganged up on and discriminated against for my beliefs that getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, socially distancing, and staying home when necessary are the best way to decrease the amount of deaths and hospitalizations of this pandemic.

I live in a red state so I even have to be careful wearing a mask in public because we've all seen the videos online of angry Karens or their husbands freaking out and confronting or spitting on innocent people for wearing masks. That's not to mention the increase in hate crimes committed against Asians in many places in the US.

So in reality, I agree with the Reich statement in question in spite of feeling discriminated against. To keep on topic, isn't that what rebels do?

Dare I ask why you feel the vaccine isn't a good idea? And you are not allowed to mention fear of cardiac arrest since we all now know that we all have to die and therefore you do not fear death.

This one pesky pandemic? Isn't downplaying the severity of it what DJT did in the beginning, which got us into this mess?

I know. Conservatives like to say, "It has a 98% survival rate, so it isn't that bad." Yet when you do the math, 2% of 330,000,000 is more than 6.5 million people. Imagine someone saying 6.5 million Americans dying of a disease is just a pesky pandemic? And that's not even worldwide numbers. So I cannot buy into this type of minimalizing of how dangerous the virus is and has turned out to be.

I've seen a lot of the bolded ^ line of reasoning coming from right winged cable news networks. Obviously I don't get my everyday news from these shows but like I said, much of my family and friends do, so unfortunately I have to be exposed to it on occasion. So to throw up our hands and say, "Well, dying is just a fact of life," is IMHO kind of absurd when said death is completely preventable. Yes, everyone dies eventually but I argue that the prevention of mass casualty is in fact a social justice issue that should be tackled. Especially considering the enormous amount of brown people in poor countries who want the vaccine but cannot access it because greedy ol Big Pharma won't release the patents.

Just yesterday I was arguing with my cousin over vaccines and he said, "I believe in God and He has a plan for me and has known how long I will live since before I was born." So I quickly replied, "Oh yeah, so why do you bother wearing a seatbelt? Why do you teach your kids to look both ways before crossing the street?" I mean seriously, saying your life is in God's hands and not caring about dying a preventable miserable death would be considered by many to be at least suicidal, if not delusional. I'm not saying you believe in God or have any religious reasoning for feeling the way you feel. I'm just trying to put things in perspective with other people who have the same belief that they feel discriminated against for being anti-vax.

I hope I have demonstrated that I have not lost my head nor lost my cool with the above response. No name calling or disrespect, really just pure curiosity for why you and others are so adamant about not getting vaxxed the same way we have already been vaxxed for polio, measles, mumps, etc. just to get through public schooling.

You do say a lot of interesting things.

You have made a belief in god look foolish, which I totally agree with. I probably don't have as narrow a view as you do of god or how beliefs work, but I too have a religious family 90% of which are double vaccinated. Two of my three siblings hold ministerial licenses that required 3 years plus extended education.

Perhaps my religious family being supportive of the system, and I the non religious one who thinks independently and is far less convinced, isn't any more or less normal.

I just think we can try and paint this whole issue of disagreement with one little intellectual brush, smile at our astute wisdom and miss the point.

Firstly remember Pfiser says 37% so not very useful considering we still have no real data on the possible risks of 2-6 vaccination of varying use. A vaccine is a simulated risk to trick your immune system into making antibodies that will hopefully be around and useful should you actually encounter the real virus.

For those of us who have encountered the real virus because we were working holding the world up while others developed a vaccine, our immuniy is much more accurate as the threat was real not simulated.

So the fear of the pro pharmaceutical people being somehow enough to force me (someone who went through the sick making your food) makes any sense why?

Being barred from using public services or restaurants when my immunity is better than all the vaccines combines or alone. But somehow I am the problem?

Push hard enough on people to try and force them to do dumb things and you could cause a rebellion. Is it where our society is wishing to head?

Will the fearful pro pharmaceutical few who have the ear of our government through money keep the lies alive or will sanity and reasonable discourse win out?

 

[Jerry Atrick]

You do say a lot of interesting things.

You have made a belief in god look foolish, which I totally agree with. I probably don't have as narrow a view as you do of god or how beliefs work, but I too have a religious family 90% of which are double vaccinated. Two of my three siblings hold ministerial licenses that required 3 years plus extended education.

Perhaps my religious family being supportive of the system, and I the non religious one who thinks independently and is far less convinced, isn't any more or less normal.

I just think we can try and paint this whole issue of disagreement with one little intellectual brush, smile at our astute wisdom and miss the point.

Firstly remember Pfiser says 37% so not very useful considering we still have no real data on the possible risks of 2-6 vaccination of varying use. A vaccine is a simulated risk to trick your immune system into making antibodies that will hopefully be around and useful should you actually encounter the real virus.

For those of us who have encountered the real virus because we were working holding the world up while others developed a vaccine, our immuniy is much more accurate as the threat was real not simulated.

So the fear of the pro pharmaceutical people being somehow enough to force me (someone who went through the sick making your food) makes any sense why?

Being barred from using public services or restaurants when my immunity is better than all the vaccines combines or alone. But somehow I am the problem?

Push hard enough on people to try and force them to do dumb things and you could cause a rebellion. Is it where our society is wishing to head?

Will the fearful pro pharmaceutical few who have the ear of our government through money keep the lies alive or will sanity and reasonable discourse win out?

You say some interesting things as well.

I'm not sure where you got the Pfizer is 37% effective number, sounds like more misinformation. I simply googled and found they advertise 95% effectiveness.

Neither polio nor measles ever reached herd immunity. A vaccine is what got them under control. Smallpox was completely eradicated, not by natural immunity but by a vaccine. And when you say a vaccine tricks your body into creating antibodies, I'm pretty sure you are thinking about vaccines like the flu variety. The covid vaccine is an mRNA vaccine and is NOT dead covid cells being released into your body.

Listen, I'm not advocating that anyone be forced to take the vaccine against their will. But I'm all about educating them to the point that they know without a doubt that they are willfully putting themselves and others at risk for not doing it. Like you said, it's about personal choice. I'm just here to make sure it is an educated choice.

On the subject of personally choosing not to take the vaccine, I do however advocate for them to go to the back of the line at hospitals and clinics. Unless you live under a rock, it is common knowledge that the majority of hospitalizations related to covid are among the unvaccinated. They are clogging up our hospitals and people are dying in ERs waiting to be seen for non-covid related emergencies.

If you don't believe in science or medicine enough to protect yourself, then you can either forego the hospital altogether when you do catch covid or wait until every other emergency and/or vaxxed person has been serviced. Hell, I think they should erect a tent outside of every hospital for the unvaxxed nurses, doctors, and covid patients to be seen completely separate from gen pop. IMHO it's the only fair thing to do.

As far as pushing people to do dumb things, I think trying to persuade people with misinformation to not get vaxxed is a pretty dumb thing. There are two sides to that coin for sure.

I don't think the US will see a rebellion based on vax beliefs. We are at 800,000 deaths and counting. There probably won't be enough people alive or well enough to unite and get anything done. Even the lead instigator of the Jan 6 insurrection is now bragging about being vaxxed and boosted. Good luck with that.

 

[Yourbaker]

My intentions posting here were not pro or anti pharmaceuticals.

You can however go and watch Pfizer's ceo say 37% on film. I believe Pfizer declared copyrights to get it off YouTube but copies persist. There is a link here in BL. Or just believe whatever, it's your health, take more vaccines, have mine.

The issue I see is massive misinformation.

I am totally guilty of being duped. Luckily I have been fooled before and learned a lot of the tell tale signs. This is almost the same size lie. I didn't see the last one for most of my life simply because it never tripped me up. I held an absolute lie as truth only because I was on the good side so it must be right.

We live in a very rapidly changing time and the things you feel are true may be complete rubbish, take a long careful look at what you believe, why you believe it and, most importantly, use the humam ability to think. See where these ideologies must inevitably lead and where they must have their roots.

We are all animals in an ecosphere, humanity is no more separate or special than any other species unless we improve our world with the amazing ability we have to not just see and live in our 3 dimensional space but predict the future based on our own alterations in the now.

Short sighted, fear based knee jerk reactions are the human norm.

I think it is time we evolved our thought process to think more like the single entity we really are. When one opinion is shouted down continously because of attempts (however well intended) to steer society, it is not the people but the system that is in failure.

Certainly I take shit as an immune person who had Covid. I can see there is zero logical reason since I literally had a 2 day sweat from omicron due to natural immunity. Why will I now take a simulated risk to trick my immune system into making the wrong antibodies? The brain fart required to force people who have already had covid to get a shot is Loco to me.

We need a society where real discussion can come to the table. It took me minutes to find the current effectiveness numbers from the drug companies themselves. Trust them not me 37% is their number and trust me says it's still probably padded by a huge piece.

I use math to see lies being foisted on the public, covid had fallen so far from initial predicted numbers I was out before March 2020 with what was being shown in the media.

When I began to see where the money was going/already gone, there were a few silly money chaser conspiracies and one huge world order take over conspiracy that could still hold any water. I wish I could rule one or the other out.

Money is mathimatically broken and we are cusping on hyper inflation, which is really the devaluation of the currencies. If you can do the math you can see this was inevitable. We need a world wide reset, problem is people believe in money and even the rich know it is over. They own things mostly, only Microsoft had over 80 billion in cash.

Will the human population just accept that the once rich now hold all the natural resources and the rest of the planet must come with our empty cups for water? Covid, IMHO, is the distraction, while Our leaders bring martial law and revert the world back toward slavery. I think our population is too high by a lot and this is the fun and creative way our leadership would like to solve it. Incite rebellion and kill off huge numbers while preserving a singular area of the world for the wealthy to watch from.

 

[darkkoon]

We should rebel and fight for the weak, the poor, the sick.
Not for the black, or homo, or women.