dopamimetic
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2013
- Messages
- 2,072
A new look at MXE / ACH / NMDA antagonist bladder issues
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24580056
So when flooding mice with injected MXE in dosages that no addict probably ever reaches (but then again there are differences in metabolism, afaik when taking values from rats one uses a security measure of 1:12, dunno about mice - and of course, these little differences often enough turn animal tests worthless) they get kidney and bladder inflammation and necrosis. The study did not test if these changes would be reversible upon cessation.
My questions now - does that say anything about human usage (besides the speculation that it -could be- harmful, that has been existed before)? What about human equivalent dosages and differences concerning oral / intranasal or sublingual x vs. intraperitoneal application?
Memantine, which (next to xenon and nitrous oxide) seems to me like next to the "compactest" nmda antagonist possible - also has cystitis in it's list of side effects. But it's also a partial anticholinergic and is designed for long term intake. Indeed I am taking it since maybe 2-3 years in dosages slightly higher than the 20mg/d recommended, not to mention the numerous grams of MXE consumed over that time, without having acute problems.
But, well, I fear of the long term safety. Especially thinking that, alzheimers' patients' mortality in mind, no one might have thought about taking this compound in the youth and for many years.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24580056
So when flooding mice with injected MXE in dosages that no addict probably ever reaches (but then again there are differences in metabolism, afaik when taking values from rats one uses a security measure of 1:12, dunno about mice - and of course, these little differences often enough turn animal tests worthless) they get kidney and bladder inflammation and necrosis. The study did not test if these changes would be reversible upon cessation.
My questions now - does that say anything about human usage (besides the speculation that it -could be- harmful, that has been existed before)? What about human equivalent dosages and differences concerning oral / intranasal or sublingual x vs. intraperitoneal application?
- Is it yet known if these nasty bladder issues from K and probably related substances are either - absolute dosage dependent (e.g. independent of the potency of the substance, meaning a higher potency one like MXE would be favorable) or relative dosage dependent, or even more or less independent?
- The same about if they origin from the molecular structure of the compound or a metabolite (in the ketamine case, it's norketamine afaik - whilst in MXE we are supposed to have an n-ethyl instead of n-methyl metabolite, for example) or by a direct action - either inseparable like if there are NMDA receptor like proteins in the bladder whose (chronic) antagonism is deleterious - or independent of the main NMDA antagonism, like - say for example, relative to an nACh antagonism, or something like that?
- And following that, what can we suspect about not directly related compounds like the -phenidines or, what especially interests me, dextrorphan - or of course any of the other known dissociatives?
Memantine, which (next to xenon and nitrous oxide) seems to me like next to the "compactest" nmda antagonist possible - also has cystitis in it's list of side effects. But it's also a partial anticholinergic and is designed for long term intake. Indeed I am taking it since maybe 2-3 years in dosages slightly higher than the 20mg/d recommended, not to mention the numerous grams of MXE consumed over that time, without having acute problems.
But, well, I fear of the long term safety. Especially thinking that, alzheimers' patients' mortality in mind, no one might have thought about taking this compound in the youth and for many years.
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