A few questions about the effects of psychedelics (esp acid and shrooms)

[AA357]

I haven't been on BL very long, but I'm noticing a lot of very esoteric threads concerning the effects of psychedelics.
As some of you might know, I take a very pragmatic approach to psychedelic use. It's good to be curious, open-minded and able to think outside the box. The problem is that discussions regarding spiritual phenomenae and encounters with aliens and demons are highly subjective and not grounded in reality.

The pharmacology of psychedelic drugs is still not very well understood and IMO ought to be discussed more.

Here are a few questions I would like to ask, which I feel are highly prudent:

- Why is it that most 'classic' psychedelics that act as serotonin receptor agonists (like LSD, DMT and psilocin) don't cause any neurotoxicity or numb your receptors to the effects of serotonin, unlike many serotonin releasing agents? Why is it that supraphysiological levels of 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) wreak havoc on your brain; yet di-methylated 4-hydroxytryptamine (psilocin) is essentially benign even in extremely high doses?
Last summer I was taking LSD/4-AcO-DMT/2C-E/DPT near enough every other day (regularly doing combos) for 3-4 months. So far this year I've tripped 7 times since New Year's Day and I feel fucking great.
In my experience; one can abuse the fuck out of these drugs and still wake up with a pleasant afterglow every morning. They seem to be 100% harmless - provided you can handle the psychological effects of tripping so frequently. I'm pretty sure I'd have some health problems by now had I been doing this with something like MDMA instead.

- How do psychedelics (LSD especially) affect muscle function, co-ordination and general athletic performance? Powerlifting while tripping balls on LSD feels TOTALLY different to powerlifting sober. I didn't feel at all impaired, but my muscles just felt SO much different and my perception of fatigue was distorted. It's a really trippy experience.
Lifting weights for pure strength gains is all about conditioning your CNS to recruit more muscle fibres when you go to lift something. Ordinarily your CNS will limit your true capabilities to protect you from injury, except in causes of hysterical strength (Google it). Could psychedelics interfere with your natural restrictions and allow you to engage more of your muscle fibres?

- How does LSD affect driving ability? Common sense dictates that it's not a sensible idea, but I'm wondering how it affects things like reaction time and distance perception relative to being stoned or tired or drunk behind the wheel.

- Users of psychedelics tend to experience qualitatively similar visuals. Is this because psychedelic drugs allow you to see all the ocular fluid and tissue that's in front of your retina? The sober mind filters out a lot of stimuli that would be distracting/unnecessary for human survival. Psychedelics take down these psychological filters and cause your brain to become overloaded with sensory input. Is it possible that they actually make you see the inside of your eyes?

- Why do psychedelics increase mucus production? This is quite a bizarre and unexpected side effect.

- How do psychedelics really affect the heart? They cause worse tachycardia than coke and speed IME and yet they are not known to increase your risk of having a heart attack. IDK about all these newer psychs but to my knowledge there are no documented cases of heart damage from the 'classic' psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin.
A lot of psychedelics - mostly tryptamines - make me feel very sedated, but even when I'm in that state my pulse is through the roof. Would it be safe for somebody with cardiomyopathy or coronary artery disease to take acid or shrooms?

Cheers.

 

[Flickering]

The problem is that discussions regarding spiritual phenomenae and encounters with aliens and demons are highly subjective and not grounded in reality.

How sure are you about this last part? I mean people get out of it what they will, but psychedelics are about opening your mind, and this sounds like you're clamping down on an entire possible dimension of the experience. Certainly the days after a trip I often find myself pondering the layers of reality I can't ordinarily perceive.

I used to take your stance, but after a few years of moderate psychedelic use, and especially after taking ayahuasca, I've come to the contrary position. I think it's irrational to believe humans just happen to be receptive to the entire spectrum of existence. I think materialism is a mere assumption that, once deconstructed, is not only gibberish, but also has almost nothing to do with science. I see it as a socialised imposition of the modern age that it's up to the individual to free himself from, much the same as Christianity in the Middle Ages.

If nothing else, I don't think we are what society teaches us we are. When you strip a person down to infancy, removing all sociolinguistic programming, you get a very different picture of the mind indeed. The mind, the body and their surrounding environment are parts of a process, not separate from each other, and not limited to words like self, life or death. We see beginnings and endings where there are none. We make up barriers with our minds and decide the universe must conform to them.

Suppose we grew up being taught something different? Suppose we were told instead that the imagination is a window into metaphysical processes that affect reality just as much as physical processes do. After all, if abstractions like religion or society can lead a civilisation to construct temples out of stone, office towers from schematics, books that impart knowledge, aren't they in some sense real? Just because they aren't solid, just because we can't pick up an idea or taste it or fuck it, doesn't mean it isn't every bit as influential as laws of physics, chemistry and biology. To me this implies there are dimensions to the world that are beyond our ordinary senses. One of the greatest gifts psychedelic drugs have given me is the ability to observe this as a self-evident fact.

(None of this, however, means I believe your local psychic can talk to the dead.)

The pharmacology of psychedelic drugs is still not very well understood and IMO ought to be discussed more.

I agree, it's a shame. As such I can't really comment on why they're generally not neurotoxic. Certainly something I appreciate though.

- How do psychedelics (LSD especially) affect muscle function, co-ordination and general athletic performance? Powerlifting while tripping balls on LSD feels TOTALLY different to powerlifting sober. I didn't feel at all impaired, but my muscles just felt SO much different and my perception of fatigue was distorted. It's a really trippy experience.
Lifting weights for pure strength gains is all about conditioning your CNS to recruit more muscle fibres when you go to lift something. Ordinarily your CNS will limit your true capabilities to protect you from injury, except in causes of hysterical strength (Google it). Could psychedelics interfere with your natural restrictions and allow you to engage more of your muscle fibres?

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure this is one of the effects of PCP. Distortion and exaggeration of physical sensations is very common on acid and other psychedelics.

I was once walking through a shopping centre on a hot day drenched in sweat, when I became convinced that a bottle had spilled in my bag, saturated my back and was now dripping all over the floor. It was impossible to tell myself otherwise, even when I checked and double-checked the bag to confirm I was not in fact even carrying any water bottles, and it was just sweat. My body was just adamant that I was being doused in something and that it was leaking all over the floor. Not pleasant, but kind of funny.

- How does LSD affect driving ability? Common sense dictates that it's not a sensible idea, but I'm wondering how it affects things like reaction time and distance perception relative to being stoned or tired or drunk behind the wheel.

I once went four-wheel driving through a desert at very low speed on a mild dose of mescaline. Figured the worst I could do that way would be to kill myself, not anyone else. It was really nice. Very surreal, like cruising through an almost CGI landscape in high definition. However, I certainly would not risk it on a road. There are just too many things you can't plan for, like your ego suddenly melting into the universe, or the illusion of a water bottle being constantly spilled down your back. And while it may improve reaction time and awareness, I imagine even a moderately busy road could be hyperstimulating. Driving while high is something I'd prefer to see in an action movie than on the road, I don't like to think the people I'm sharing the highway with might be realising death doesn't exist as they cruise at 100mph in a two-tonne vehicle.

- Users of psychedelics tend to experience qualitatively similar visuals. Is this because psychedelic drugs allow you to see all the ocular fluid and tissue that's in front of your retina? The sober mind filters out a lot of stimuli that would be distracting/unnecessary for human survival. Psychedelics take down these psychological filters and cause your brain to become overloaded with sensory input. Is it possible that they actually make you see the inside of your eyes?

Interesting idea. I personally doubt it. There'd have to be some uncanny shit imprinted on the inside of my eyes, like golden reverberating light in the archetypal shape of a human, or winding aether passageways. Cool way to put it though. You tend not to see your own nose even though it's been in your field of vision your entire life.

- How do psychedelics really affect the heart? They cause worse tachycardia than coke and speed IME and yet they are not known to increase your risk of having a heart attack. IDK about all these newer psychs but to my knowledge there are no documented cases of heart damage from the 'classic' psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin.
A lot of psychedelics - mostly tryptamines - make me feel very sedated, but even when I'm in that state my pulse is through the roof. Would it be safe for somebody with cardiomyopathy or coronary artery disease to take acid or shrooms?

Death on these substances is almost unheard-of even at extreme doses. But my heart rate has been a source of anxiety for me more than once in the past. There was one nasty incident where I was, again, in the middle of nowhere with no reception on a higher dose of LSD, and I had a bleeding nose. Which I get frequently anyway, but of course I began to worry I might go into cardiac arrest. I'm not sure why the pulse increases. Some sources claim it doesn't but I beg to differ. Perhaps it's purely psychological.

 

[pupnik]

quite a lot is known about receptors, but not enough knowledge is meaningful yet, as relates to consciousness, so even though we know about binding, agonism and affinity, we don't know what happens after the binding, or how that effects cognition at a molecular level or at a brain tissue level, except for some gross functional observations:

we do know that sensation and thought are enhanced, that dimensional sense overlapping occurs, and that the sense of time passing is diminished in equal portions, and in increasing degrees, as the dosage is increased.

(do not drive under the influence, because of the unpredictable aspect of the sense of time passing becoming altered)

we also know that lsd and shrooms are active at low dosages so little or no toxic effect occurs or accumulates at any dosage, while phenethyamines and most everything else with psychoactive potential is toxic to some degree, and deadly in over-dosages.

 

[AA357]

How sure are you about this last part? I mean people get out of it what they will, but psychedelics are about opening your mind, and this sounds like you're clamping down on an entire possible dimension of the experience. Certainly the days after a trip I often find myself pondering the layers of reality I can't ordinarily perceive.

We don't live in The Matrix.
These 'dimensions' you enter are parts of your consciousness. I don't think you appreciate what a complex thing the human consciousness is. Psychedelics cause profound alterations in consciousness and we really need to be looking into why this happens on a biochemical level.

I used to take your stance, but after a few years of moderate psychedelic use, and especially after taking ayahuasca, I've come to the contrary position. I think it's irrational to believe humans just happen to be receptive to the entire spectrum of existence.

What do you mean by spectrum of existence? Psychedelics enhance the senses and make you perceive things that ordinarily your sober mind would filter out... this is why colors look brighter, textures look richer and tactile sensibility is heightened.
Unfortunately human beings are imperfect and the resulting flood of sensory input 'scrambles' the brain; which causes distorted thinking, increased suggestibility/delusional thinking in those susceptible, and blending of the senses (synesthesia). This is why dropping acid is often known as 'getting fried'... there's a reason we have these natural psychological filters in place.
A human brain on LSD is like an overloaded circuit board; that's why acid makes you 'trip' (like when a circuit breaker becomes overloaded and trips out).

I agree, it's a shame. As such I can't really comment on why they're generally not neurotoxic. Certainly something I appreciate though.

It sure is great. It's interesting - there seems to be no cross-tolerance at all between 5-HT agonists and serotonin. The downregulation of 5-HT receptors to the effects of psychedelics isn't associated with any neurological or psychiatric problems.

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure this is one of the effects of PCP. Distortion and exaggeration of physical sensations is very common on acid and other psychedelics.

PCP works differently. It's hardly surprising that a dissociative anesthetic that also works as a pretty powerful dopamine releaser can potentially increase strength and stamina. At the same time though it impairs physical co-ordiation and increase reaction times.

LSD really seems to strengthen that mind-muscle connection... you become so much more aware of the feeling of your muscles working, but everything just feels a lot 'different'. Certain exercises - in particular heavy deadlifts and gymnastics movements - feel so much easier and more natural.
I once took LSD 50 minutes before the end of a BJJ session. Grappling with people while coming up on acid was fucking awesome.

I would like to see studies on the effects of LSD on various athletic attributes... primarily max strength and explosive strength, but also balance, co-ordination and muscular and cardiovascular endurance.
Surely I can't be the only powerlifter out there who enjoys lifting while tripping.

I was once walking through a shopping centre on a hot day drenched in sweat, when I became convinced that a bottle had spilled in my bag, saturated my back and was now dripping all over the floor. It was impossible to tell myself otherwise, even when I checked and double-checked the bag to confirm I was not in fact even carrying any water bottles, and it was just sweat. My body was just adamant that I was being doused in something and that it was leaking all over the floor. Not pleasant, but kind of funny.

Yeah, when I'm tripping I am always highly sensitive to moisture. A lot of it's just tactile hallucinations though.

I once went four-wheel driving through a desert at very low speed on a mild dose of mescaline. Figured the worst I could do that way would be to kill myself, not anyone else. It was really nice. Very surreal, like cruising through an almost CGI landscape in high definition. However, I certainly would not risk it on a road. There are just too many things you can't plan for, like your ego suddenly melting into the universe, or the illusion of a water bottle being constantly spilled down your back. And while it may improve reaction time and awareness, I imagine even a moderately busy road could be hyperstimulating. Driving while high is something I'd prefer to see in an action movie than on the road, I don't like to think the people I'm sharing the highway with might be realising death doesn't exist as they cruise at 100mph in a two-tonne vehicle.

There have been loads of experiments on the various effects of cannabis, alcohol and tiredness on driving in controlled environments. The effects of LSD on driving ability really ought to be studied (in a controlled environment that is) - it could answer a lot of questions about the drug. I would strongly advise against driving at the peak of a 300mcg acid trip, but I still believe it's less dangerous than driving while drunk or on sedatives.

Interesting idea. I personally doubt it. There'd have to be some uncanny shit imprinted on the inside of my eyes, like golden reverberating light in the archetypal shape of a human, or winding aether passageways. Cool way to put it though. You tend not to see your own nose even though it's been in your field of vision your entire life.

When you look at an object while sober, it's crystal clear. The 'filters' in your brain prevent you from seeing all the stuff that's in front of your retina, and the human eye is a highly complex structure. Is it really that hard to believe?

quite a lot is known about receptors, but not enough knowledge is meaningful yet, as relates to consciousness, so even though we know about binding, agonism and affinity, we don't know what happens after the binding, or how that effects cognition at a molecular level or at a brain tissue level, except for some gross functional observations:

we do know that sensation and thought are enhanced, that dimensional sense overlapping occurs, and that the sense of time passing is diminished in equal portions, and in increasing degrees, as the dosage is increased.

(do not drive under the influence, because of the unpredictable aspect of the sense of time passing becoming altered)

we also know that lsd and shrooms are active at low dosages so little or no toxic effect occurs or accumulates at any dosage, while phenethyamines and most everything else with psychoactive potential is toxic to some degree, and deadly in over-dosages.

Very well put.
I agree that it's best not to drive under the influence but I'm still interested about how it would affect somebody driving on a track or something. I wonder how it would affect factors such as perception of speed, braking distance and clutch control.

 

[bla-ljus]

- How do psychedelics really affect the heart? They cause worse tachycardia than coke and speed IME and yet they are not known to increase your risk of having a heart attack. IDK about all these newer psychs but to my knowledge there are no documented cases of heart damage from the 'classic' psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin.
A lot of psychedelics - mostly tryptamines - make me feel very sedated, but even when I'm in that state my pulse is through the roof.

Have you actually measured your heart rate or is it just the feeling of tachycardia?
Dr X (Doctor Fernando Caudevilla) - a real doctor - participates to some darknet forums where he replies to peoples' questions about drug use and health effects etc. Instead of just stating "don't do drugs" he knows people are going to take them anyway thus he provides people with his best view on things and leaves the choice using/not using to the reader. There have been several cases when a question on LSD safety and the answer is usually: Physically it's safe, but there is no telling how one's mental health might be affected by tripping LSD.

Just recently he was asked on it again, quoting his reply:

Cardiovascular risk is related to many factors. One of them is age: this is irreversible and the older you are, the higher is the risk. But there are many other factors, as use of tobacco, obesity, diabetes, cholesterol, lack of physical exercise, hypertension...Risk is higher depending on how many of these factors you have. In terms of physical safety LSD is safer than MDMA, as the first does not produce cardiovascular effects.

Above taken from http://i25c62nvu4cgeqyz.onion/viewtopic.php?pid=416466#p416466
(You need tor browser bundle to access. see https://thorproject.org )

 

[max_freakout]

Psychedelic visual alteration (spontaneous pattern formation) has nothing to do with the physiology of the eye, ocular fluid or whatever. The visual alteration is just the most superficial manifestation of the underlying alteration in cognitive processing (loosening/dis-engagement of cognitive associations). Psychedelic perceptual alteration occurs on the cognitive level, not the physical level.

 

[Ismene]

PCP works differently. It's hardly surprising that a dissociative anesthetic that also works as a pretty powerful dopamine releaser can potentially increase strength and stamina. At the same time though it impairs physical co-ordiation and increase reaction times.

I don't think there's anything to the urban myth that PCP gives you the strength of ten men tho - that's just the same old myth they attach to every new drug. They said opium gave you the strength of 10 men in the early 1900s. They said cannabis gave you the strength of 10 men back in the 1930s.

 

[Delsyd]

I've noticed increased athletic ability in myself and in friends on MXE. I can do more pull ups on MXE than I can sober. And one of my friends was able to jump up and reach my porch and hang off of it, it's 10-11ft high. He had tried this many times with no success, than one day when he's on MXE he gave it a shot and totally did it.
Also a few years ago on 2c-I I was able to beat my hacky sack somewhere around 60 times before it fell, usually I can do about half that at my best.

 

[AA357]

Have you actually measured your heart rate or is it just the feeling of tachycardia?
Dr X (Doctor Fernando Caudevilla) - a real doctor - participates to some darknet forums where he replies to peoples' questions about drug use and health effects etc. Instead of just stating "don't do drugs" he knows people are going to take them anyway thus he provides people with his best view on things and leaves the choice using/not using to the reader. There have been several cases when a question on LSD safety and the answer is usually: Physically it's safe, but there is no telling how one's mental health might be affected by tripping LSD.

Just recently he was asked on it again, quoting his reply:

Above taken from http://i25c62nvu4cgeqyz.onion/viewtopic.php?pid=416466#p416466
(You need tor browser bundle to access. see https://thorproject.org )

I check my pulse manually sometimes when I'm tripping (just out of curiosity - I don't fuck with the dangerous ones so I'm never worried). I've never used a sphyg while tripping but I can always tell my HR is significantly elevated.
Cannabis is also safe for the heart, but that definitely causes tachycardia. I've used a sphyg several times while stoned out of my box and every time the result was pretty much the same (blood pressure unchanged or slightly lowered, pulse was through the roof).

This happens regardless of mindset - there is an actual physical reason for it. Even when you're totally blissed out and you think your body is relaxed; feel your neck and you'll find your heart is still going like the clappers. I think it's great that these drugs are so physically benign but I don't get how they don't damage serotonin receptors or heart function.

Psychedelic visual alteration (spontaneous pattern formation) has nothing to do with the physiology of the eye, ocular fluid or whatever. The visual alteration is just the most superficial manifestation of the underlying alteration in cognitive processing (loosening/dis-engagement of cognitive associations). Psychedelic perceptual alteration occurs on the cognitive level, not the physical level.

"Sensory gating" is a real thing you know. The brain filters out a lot of unnecessary stimuli and psychedelics are known to disrupt this process.

I don't think there's anything to the urban myth that PCP gives you the strength of ten men tho - that's just the same old myth they attach to every new drug. They said opium gave you the strength of 10 men in the early 1900s. They said cannabis gave you the strength of 10 men back in the 1930s.

Ever heard of hysterical strength (AKA retard strength)? Ordinarily, your CNS limits muscle fiber recruitment so you are never truly able to use 100% of your strength. In certain situations this mechanism can be overridden.

I've noticed increased athletic ability in myself and in friends on MXE. I can do more pull ups on MXE than I can sober. And one of my friends was able to jump up and reach my porch and hang off of it, it's 10-11ft high. He had tried this many times with no success, than one day when he's on MXE he gave it a shot and totally did it.
Also a few years ago on 2c-I I was able to beat my hacky sack somewhere around 60 times before it fell, usually I can do about half that at my best.

I love to cycle on MXE. I find it great for anything that requires stamina. Weightlifting, not so much... it makes me feel strong but it does fuck with my co-ordination somewhat. Psychedelics + powerlifting is where it's at. DOM and LSD are my favourite pre-workout supplements.

 

[Ismene]

Ever heard of hysterical strength (AKA retard strength)? Ordinarily, your CNS limits muscle fiber recruitment so you are never truly able to use 100% of your strength. In certain situations this mechanism can be overridden.

s.

Always thought it was an urban myth - the one where the grandmother lifts a 2 ton car off her baby type stories?

 

[AA357]

Always thought it was an urban myth - the one where the grandmother lifts a 2 ton car off her baby type stories?

Yeah that kind of stuff. I'm sure there are a lot of urban myths out there but it is a very real phenomenon.
It's the reason Olympic weightlifters are so damn strong - they condition their CNS to recruit more muscle fibres.

Google Zulfiya Chinshanlo. In the London 2012 Olympics she set a world record by cleaning and jerking 131kg. At the time she was 18 years old and weighed 53kg.
To put things into perspective: the average, untrained, fully-grown adult man on the street would have a hard time deadlifting 131kg (that's just standing up straight while holding the barbell). This little teenage girl can throw it over her fucking head. How ridiculous is that???

I am a 68kg male with a 200kg deadlift. Not to brag but this is actually considered pretty damn strong and I'm pound-for-pound the second strongest deadlifter in my gym.
But in the grand scheme of things it's nothing really... THIS unassuming little fucker is my weight and he can get 196kg overhead.

Never underestimate the capabilities of the human body.

 

[Peacephrog1972]

maybe she was uberdosed while doing it??

I wouldn't mind trying lifting while tripping....im a swimmer (been 20 years since serious competition, but i will always be a fish) and swimming while tripping is always amazing...i feel faster, i feel like I'm "grabbing" water much more efficiently.....im intrigues my this thread as well

 

[greengummybear]

You'll bust your back exercising that way. What I do after heavy exercise is turn down the thermostat about 5 degrees then consume a moderate amount of psychedelics. This reduces whatever tiredness happens after exercise. I also drink 100% not from concentrate juice and eat protein such as cashews (they have cheap cashews at Walmart, the best are Great Value brand and from India).

The healthy eating stuff I do, well, everyday. Though I found out eating healthy that way is important if you feel sore. People reminded me of eating healthy that way so much if I am sore I nearly feel my ears ring/ears burn.

I wouldn't exercise while hallucinating green lattice patterns with whatever happens lasting 5 times longer than normal. Do you think you could avoid mistakes?

 

[Ismene]

You need the low calorie LSD.

 

[AA357]

You'll bust your back exercising that way.

How will I?

I wouldn't exercise while hallucinating green lattice patterns with whatever happens lasting 5 times longer than normal. Do you think you could avoid mistakes?

Sure, why not?

You need the low calorie LSD.

I prefer the high protein one. But yeah, that shit's good too.