4-AcO-DMT solution question

[Imaweirdo]

I've been looking for an answer to this for weeks, I can't seem to find any good answer one way or another. Say someone wanted to make a solution of 15mg/ml of 4-AcO-DMT (fumarate) using vodka. How stable would this solution be in a glass dropper bottle in the freezer?

 

[Thomas Davie]

I've been looking for an answer to this for weeks, I can't seem to find any good answer one way or another. Say someone wanted to make a solution of 15mg/ml of 4-AcO-DMT (fumarate) using vodka. How stable would this solution be in a glass dropper bottle in the freezer?

I will be running an experiment about long term stability of 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate in distilled, deionized water frozen in vials. I expect no loss in potency. But, each vial will be thawed only once; yours may be subject to multi[le freeze/thaw cycles. no? That (in my opnion I've got no proof) will be the big negative. Also, the water I'll be using will be of much higher purity than the liquid in commercial vodka (less dissolved metals, etc).

But, for a single preparation and freeze I would not expect any loss of stability in your sample as long as it stayed frozen. When you start to thaw it repeatedly I've got no idea.

Tom

 

[Solipsis]

Why don't you just get a milligram scale, they are pretty cheap?

IMO most tryptamines are not meant to be dissolved. Compounds are less stable in solution as a rule, but for phenethylamines like 2C-B it matters a lot less since they are so stable. 4-HO tryptamines are a disaster to put in solution, 5-MeO tryptamines and plain tryptamines like DMT or MiPT (Although I recommend against dissolving AMT) can survive in solution for some time but possibly form N-oxides.

4-AcO's like the one you have may exist in some equilibrium with other forms in solution and some of those might be as vulnerable as the 4-HO's. So it is possible that this slight portion degrades relatively easy and over time bit by bit more is converted into that state since it is an equilibrium. I don't know how long it would last in solution in general, hard to say.
But yes freezing it suspends some of that degradation since the molecules move slower. It can matter about 8-16 fold perhaps, compared to room temperature. Still, vodka is kinda liquid in the freezer and that still ionizes and thus weakens the drugs you dissolve in it.
To sum up: it might go kind of slow, but is still far from ideal. Just spend 25$ on a mg scale (check the scales thread) and you can enjoy its benefits and improved safety for times to come.

Your fumarate should be pretty stable in solid / powder form, if you keep it dry and cool.

 

[Imaweirdo]

I would get a scale but the thing is that I already have one, but I'm on an extended leave from my home and unable to access it for quite a while.

 

[Solipsis]

Then how are you going to measure how much 4-AcO-DMT to dissolve in the first place? Eyeballing or relying on the vendor is not really a good idea, hopefully you weighed your stash of 4-AcO-DMT yourself at some point.

It's up to you if you want to risk sacrificing some of the material, but the best is still to weigh individual doses or a few at a time if it is to be dissolved. I would never dissolve all of my product unless it is super stable, and even then there would have to be a good reason.

 

[Delsyd]

4 substituted tryptamines don't keep well in solution.
It usually ends up turning brown, I'm not sure how it affects potency though.

 

[phuckingnutz]

4 substituted tryptamines don't keep well in solution.
It usually ends up turning brown, I'm not sure how it affects potency though.

The OP said he was going to keep it in the freezer, which, IME, will keep it indefinitely...freezing keeps virtually anything "good" indefinitely.

 

[Solipsis]

That's not really true, freezing something slows down chemical reactions including those involved in degradation of a drug... and a rule of thumb is that if you decrease the temperature by 10C / 18F reactions tend to go twice as slow.

But that is not all, if you can keep something under inert conditions i.e. free of air, oxygen and water but using something like argon or nitrogen instead... even something that is a bit sensitive like LSD can survive for decades without much issues.
On the other hand if you dissolve a compound in water, in which oxygen is also dissolved... you expose the chemical to two factors that destabilize it. Freezing it helps but it is no magic cure.

So indefinitely is definitely saying too much, even if it may seem like that from the time extension freezing can provide.

It's possible that if tryptamines turn into brown goo, degradation products are formed that can degrade even further where it is irreversible. But I also heard at one point that someone had found something that you can add to brown goo to reverse discoloration and apparently at least the initial degradation. Also people have found brown tryptamine gunk to still be active, but I wouldn't recommend taking it.

I guess there are a lot of sides to this..

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

It's been my experience that when freezing the solution, most of the material actually comes out of the solution as it sits in the freezer and gets colder. The colder the solution the less material it can hold. This was what happened when I tried putting 5-MeO-MiPt into a vodka solution. After checking on it after it had been in the freezer for a few days it looked like a lot of the powder had come out and was sitting in the bottom of the single serve vodka bottle.
I'm not sure if the fact that it has come out of the solution would affect long term potency as it sits in the freezer but I was resolved after that to only put material into a solution if it will be used completley within a few days (festival).

 

[black53]

Imo it should be fine frozen.

 

[Thomas Davie]

It's been my experience that when freezing the solution, most of the material actually comes out of the solution as it sits in the freezer and gets colder. The colder the solution the less material it can hold. This was what happened when I tried putting 5-MeO-MiPt into a vodka solution. After checking on it after it had been in the freezer for a few days it looked like a lot of the powder had come out and was sitting in the bottom of the single serve vodka bottle.
I'm not sure if the fact that it has come out of the solution would affect long term potency as it sits in the freezer but I was resolved after that to only put material into a solution if it will be used completley within a few days (festival).

Precipitation due to decreased solubility is a slight concern of mine (a slight concern).

I'd started making mushroom tea because I was gagging when I ate mushrooms; although part of that was my fault, I was letting my mushrooms break their veils and drop spores....

Found that the tea was stable for at least one week, and mushroom ice cubes were good for at least 4 weeks, So naturally I started to think about longer term frozen storage. From personal experience, I've found that the solubility of 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate in water is at least 15 mg/ml. All I'm asking the gods for is a solubility of 5 mg/ml at -23C If the vodka was 40% abv EtOH that could have lowered the solubility.

But, Ballz, you do give me cause for concern (thanks). I've got 3 colours of microcentrifuge tubes I'd planned on using (clear, green and blue). I'm only going to use clear tubes now, and hopefully before I assay each set of tubes I can see whether or not there is any precipitation.

However, I will swear up and down on a stack of bibles that my mushroom tea is good for at least 7 days and mushroom ice cubes only extend that.

Tom

 

[Imaweirdo]

I just purchased another scale. Thanks guys. Didn't want to risk it with such a precious chemical. I was going to depend on the vendor to give me an accurate weight but, as someone pointed out, that's probably not a very good idea.