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Addiction Is it possible for others to learn the consequences vicariously or must we each suffer our consequences to fully understand?

LucidSDreamr

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May 23, 2013
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It’s been nagging me. It seems like no matter how much kids are told that drugs are bad or seen the devastation drugs cause, that if someone is indeed a true addict, they will not learn that this isn’t the way to live without themselves experiencing first hand the hell that addiction brings.

Is there a way to properly transmit this first hand learned knowledge to young ppl that have not started drugs yet? We are failing our youth in this regard and I believe we could do better. I just don’t know how.
 
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i have found success. but you have to talk really fr. and cover things realistically. ive for sure had younger folks tell me they modified their behavior after the horror i described to them,
 
Good question Lucid. Reminds me of a saying:

A smart man learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

I don't know though man, life is for living. Living is dangerous in many ways yet we want to experience it. I have zero regrets on my substance issues in the past. However I did come out unscathed. I know that is not true for some people that say used a lot of ketamine and have constant issues now as we were warned. So I feel both ways. Be smart and be wise. But I have no answers to this. Also the drug scene seems way more dangerous today than say the 1980's where we had cocaine, heroin and weed. Even speed and PCP had its own fans and niche back then. But we never heard of bladder issues with PCP. With the amount of RC's I think we entered a new era of health issues that we have not even begun to sort out yet. I do not think drugs can be warned away really. People will experiment. Some will use caution, others won't care.
 
Good question Lucid. Reminds me of a saying:

A smart man learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

I don't know though man, life is for living. Living is dangerous in many ways yet we want to experience it. I have zero regrets on my substance issues in the past. However I did come out unscathed. I know that is not true for some people that say used a lot of ketamine and have constant issues now as we were warned. So I feel both ways. Be smart and be wise. But I have no answers to this. Also the drug scene seems way more dangerous today than say the 1980's where we had cocaine, heroin and weed. Even speed and PCP had its own fans and niche back then. But we never heard of bladder issues with PCP. With the amount of RC's I think we entered a new era of health issues that we have not even begun to sort out yet. I do not think drugs can be warned away really. People will experiment. Some will use caution, others won't care.

Glad you got out unscathed. I dodged so many bullets othered perished by (IV infection deaths, car crashes, cancer, prison, brain damage, lung damage/disease, heart failure, fentanyl ODs kidney damage, liver damage, suicide, financial ruin, murder from others associated with sales etc …I could go on forever) The thing is there are so many bullets that if you keep going one of them will hit you eventually.

I do seem to think you might be right in that only the person themselves must suffer the consequences to learn. That’s really sad. This issue being so taboo isn’t helping either.
 
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i have found success. but you have to talk really fr. and cover things realistically. ive for sure had younger folks tell me they modified their behavior after the horror i described to them,
I think that’s where we’re failing. Kids need to see how ugly this is first hand and witness the horror.

But people don’t want to expose their innocent children to such nasty things.

I was truly fucked after my first hit of weed. I realized I was an addict quickly, I was so much more obsessed than my friends, but I didn’t understand the consequences and by the time I understood them I was resigned to killymyself wjrh drug and didn’t care.
 
Glad you got out unscathed.
Well I have my own list of stuff like that too Including a 5 year bid. I mean today I am in better shape. I guess unscathed was a bad way to put it. I was scathed.! Just none of the newer stuff like xylazine or fentanyl, etc... Only OD'd on BT heroin once found by my room mate so no hospital then. Maybe a few people doing ketamine then too. But the drug scene is much much more dangerous today. I think I am talking about the streets. Pharms have always been. Ketamine no so much.

Keep the faith Lucid. I think in some ways we are all a mixture of smart and wise depending on the time and place.
 
The thing is not to preach against something or other, but to teach how to make sound decisions. And offer alternatives
If a kid feels peer-pressured to try substance X, whatever you might have told them before doesn't matter.
If a kid goes through hell because of family issues/abuse and there is no other choice to escape but drugs?

Just telling someone your personal history might resonate with those who feel connected to you, but to others you will be just some prick who wants to tell them how to live their lives.
 
Dunno man, I was a child during the 80´s and so where my mates when my city was one of the Heroin capitals of Italy, there were needles everywhere, people dying everyday, almost every family had at least a member with heroin issues, people dying of HIV and all this....still,we ve almost all started using H at some point. I think we need a frank discussion about drugs but also accept the fact that some people will use them no matter what and hence focus on HR
 
It’s been nagging me. It seems like no matter how much kids are told that drugs are bad or seen the devastation drugs cause, that if someone is indeed a true addict, they will not learn that this isn’t the way to live without themselves experiencing first hand the hell that addiction brings.

Is there a way to properly transmit this first hand learned knowledge to young ppl that have not started drugs yet? We are failing our youth in this regard and I believe we could do better. I just don’t know how.
Well I mentioned in another post somewhere on here just after I joined that I hadn't had addiction problems in the past, but I most definitely went through a period of alcoholism. Functional then absolutely not functional. It was wild withdrawals that finally got me to swear off the drink, despite having seen problems with alcohol in my family growing up, with relatives drinking themselves to death. Still almost did it myself.

But now I'm just coming off xanax. Been on it for two months and at the end of a taper. I would have gladly stayed on it, given how it made me feel over that time, but it's the horror stories on here and other places that made me commit to a taper and to quit it after the prescribed period. So, in my case, once yes, and once no.
 
The thing is not to preach against something or other, but to teach how to make sound decisions.
I don’t believe that a true drug addict can make sound decisions when it comes to drugs; especially in the early stages of addiction. There are definitely people that can but they are not real deal addicts imo.
 
I think we need a frank discussion about drugs but also accept the fact that some people will use them no matter what and hence focus on HR
was it being discussed openly in Italy or was it very taboo? This is what I think is lacking in drug education. At least in America. When I went to school there was zero education whatsoever presented to us on the topic. I’m not sure what is being done now since things have worsened much more in this decade with the rise of fentanyl.
 
Dunno man, I was a child during the 80´s and so where my mates when my city was one of the Heroin capitals of Italy, there were needles everywhere, people dying everyday, almost every family had at least a member with heroin issues, people dying of HIV and all this....still,we ve almost all started using H at some point. I think we need a frank discussion about drugs but also accept the fact that some people will use them no matter what and hence focus on HR
I agree. That it is possible once you are already in addiction and realizing the consequences. I would say this site played a role in me 1) quitting IV usage; and 2) not abusing mdma And sticking to the “rules” this forum has outlined regarding frequency of use and dosages/redosing. The stories of long term comedown terrified me and I never heavily abused mdma because of it.

but by this point I already was committed to being a drug addict and it was simply an adjustment in my use, and lying to myself that I could balance it all if I did the right drugs with the right frequency; but being an addict and being unaware of other pitfalls a few different consequences eventually caught up with me; some of them very obvious but I had a false sense of confidence.

To relay this feeling of defeat to someone that hasn’t even started drugs seems impossible.
 
was it being discussed openly in Italy or was it very taboo? This is what I think is lacking in drug education. At least in America. When I went to school there was zero education whatsoever presented to us on the topic. I’m not sure what is being done now since things have worsened much more in this decade with the rise of fentanyl.
It s taboo even today, imagine back then ! The general idea was that junkies were the scum of the earth and deserved to die, if you smoke weed you ll inevitably end up shooting heroin in an alley, etc. If you have Netflix check this out ,

The majority of my friends are into drugs but two of them, one is my guitarist here n Brazil so imagine how many chances he had to use blow-oxys-whatever, still the guy is simply not interested, as I m not interested in...anything but blow and opis, I used to drink a lot and now I totally despise alcohol, I ll never understand people addicted to hookers or gambling etc.

In my experience, however, people who are not into drugs are in many cases as fucked up as I am , maybe more, they are just fucking up their life with different things (toxic relationships, food, religious or political fanaticism, gaming, etc) because as humans we are a pretty fucked up bunch anyway.....
 
I had a false sense of confidence.
I still fucking do, as I ve managed to be more or less functional since I was 23 ( 41 now). I ve started to consider my use as a problem when it was affecting my wife
To relay this feeling of defeat to someone that hasn’t even started drugs seems impossible.
It s like trying to explain what opi w-d feels like....only addicts understand each other. We can do our part, tell the pro and the cons, help people using in a less destructive way, fight for decriminalization-legalization ( drug laws have been more destructive that the drugs themselves) but some people, for psychological-cultural-whatever reasons, will always be attracted not only to substances but to the "subculture" in general.
 
It's funny how my ideas on what I would suggest to people depends on who they are. A stranger in the street that is an a-hole, do what you want. My niece in Greece that orders those benzos off the clear net like some of you all do now I have to worry about etizines? There is worry.

I am not sure we can tell anyone anything. But we sure would want to spare people some grief.
 
It’s been nagging me. It seems like no matter how much kids are told that drugs are bad or seen the devastation drugs cause, that if someone is indeed a true addict, they will not learn that this isn’t the way to live without themselves experiencing first hand the hell that addiction brings.

Is there a way to properly transmit this first hand learned knowledge to young ppl that have not started drugs yet? We are failing our youth in this regard and I believe we could do better. I just don’t know how.

Well the thing is that you cannot know who's gonna be an addict before that person gets into drugs. The only way to stop anyone getting addicted is to never have a single person take any drugs, which isn't possible. Also scare tactics don't work - anyone who's ever had a drink or a joint and enjoyed it knows that 'drugs are bad' as a blanket statement doesn't correspond to reality.

I think the best thing we could do is have drug education be actual drug EDUCATION, because right now all we have is anti-drug scare tactics. That's to say to give the correct and realistic info about the possible risks but also the potential positives of drug use; if nothing good ever came of substances there would be no addicts. Nobody gets addicted to things they don't LIKE.

Plus to someone with a contrarian streak like me demonization is counterproductive. It's like reverse propaganda. Being told how bad and dangerous H is and that it's only fucked-up people who take it only made it more attractive. For every person who is deterred by those dramatic anti-drugs campaigns there'll be another for whom it'll only make the drugs appear more desirable. Forbidden fruit effect and all that.

So, HONEST FACTS about drugs, the good and the bad, instead of fear-driven ideology. Teach about drugs like we teach about alcohol - you're not expected to never try a drink, instead you're told not to over-consume, not to drive under the influence etc. MODERATION and SAFETY are key.
Do we stop people from having sex because SOME might get horrible diseases from it or be sexually abused? No. Do we stop people engaging in extreme sports because SOME will be crippled for life or even die? No.
We acknowledge people WILL DO those things so we encourage them to do it as safely and sensibly as possible.

Then also make it a priority to warn kids to NOT lean on anything as a chemical comfort blanket for when they have issues. That's how most addictions start.

Then to stop repeating those drug myths like 'one hit and you're hooked for life' or 'everyone who uses this or that will turn into an addict'.
I honestly think I might never have ended up addicted if I hadn't completely internalized that script. To my mind, I basically willingly signed a contract to 'be a junkie' the first time I took a shot. So I became one. It's called 'response expectancy' , ie you subconsciously programme yourself to act the way you've been convinced you are going to act in a given situation.
Just stop the whole mystification. Drugs and ESPECIALLY opiates are often glamorized as much as they're simultaneously demonized.
I could write a book on how my own drug of choice gets talked about in these overblown terms, like it's paradise, and it's also hell. All those are mental projections that just serve to romanticize it. This does no good at all. We need to be more factual.

And lastly, it's important for parents and teachers to NOT flip out and overreact when they find out a teenager has maybe been doing a bit of weed or popped a pill or two at a festival. It escalates the whole situation and creates a massive problem where there didn't need to be one. When you make a huge issue out of ordinary rebellious / exploring teenage behaviour, that turns a single instance of fairly harmless drug use into a cascade of unwarranted shit. I mean there's parents who'll ship their son off to a rehab for having shared a spliff with a mate. Schools who suspend you. You then get your education interrupted, your social reputation tarnished, future job opportunities ruined because now you're technically a criminal for using an illegal substance. You're branded with a label that has a whole laundry list of misconceptions and prejudices attached to it. A lot of young people that are treated like they are now a 'problem' and need 'early intervention' only react by doubling down on their drug use, 'cause hey!, my parents think I'm basically already fucked and my school has just excluded me so...
Intervention more often than not serves to cement that kid's 'deviant' identity and entrenches the problems it's supposed to 'cure'.

It also puts the focus on the drug and makes it a bigger deal in the kid's head. If he's overdoing something because he's got problems, the prime focus should be on helping that kid with his problems, instead of condemning him for using.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. Sorry it's bit rambly, I'm 5 beers in.
 
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Anyway that's my 2 cents. Sorry it's bit rambly, I'm 5 beers in.
I tried to answer this one earlier on with my 2.5 mg clonaz and decided to wait, haha.
Good decision, not because of what I might have written but because you managed to express what I am thinking in a ver clear and to-the-point way.
 
I will definitely say I think my nephew has done just that after seeing my VICIOUS addiction to fyntinol and then recovery, sweet sweeeet Methadone 🤣🤣🤣✊✊✊ but I think he might never do opiates. If that's wag this quistion was
 
Well, being honest, using fear as a tool to make people away from drugs doesn't work. In Brazil, there is a program of the government named Proerd, where police officers visited public schools to teach teens that drugs are bad,destroy life's and families, uses bizarre non sense educational videos that looks ridiculous. They don't explain why is bad, don't explore de consequences... Is just fear. The image of the addicted here is the lazy, criminal, selfish, violent and evil...While things are more complex. The lack of knowledge and the educational approach is failed using fear. Here
The irony is that my step-father oldest son (he didn't live with me) is a coke addict, his father had to pick him at night on dangerous areas. The stories told by my mother and step-father scared me. But when he came to live with us (I was 16)... He looked normal for me. Despite knowing his actions he didn't looked like a monster (okay, after he did some fucked up stuff and his father is low contact with him, but I don't know). The only thing suspisious was some nose sounds coming from his bedroom, but maybe was a normal habit of a coke user... Never gonna know. Had no interest that time.
Anyway, I'm the proof that fear culture doesn't work. My first time doing coke I was so scared of that white line... To become a monster. In the end, my fear seduced me. That happens with some people from my circle.
Another thing that shocked me is de demonization of weed here. Which is bizarre.
Education and transparency is the basis of prevention. An interdisciplinar team with health professionals, teachers, policemen, users, former users... Information and honesty is important. Is necessary to work with this stigma.
 
It’s seems from the answers here that those that are truly addicts are going to have to run that gauntlet themselves, and experience the consequences themselves. It’s all kind of inevitable.
 
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