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lost DOC?

Rorthron

Rorthron

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
251
Hi,

I received a reportedly DOC batch from the same vendor as the one that has provided this spectrum.

I still do not know it is the real thing or not. however, to have some dosage control and preserve it I decided to dissolve it in Ethanol 96%. Fortunately I did not use the whole batch. Strangely it did not dissolve. rather it formed a suspension which deposited after some minutes. At the moment it is difficult for me to know if there anything dissolved, but I can tell that at the very least half of the product is in the bottom. I used 50 mg in 15 ml of ethanol

One known issue. I thought the impurities in the ethanol I was using were just water, but as the powder was not dissolving I look closely at the bottle label and to my dismay I found it contained cetrimide in 0.25%. I'm not concerned about this compound toxicity as this is sanitary alcohol for cleaning wounds. The thing is that I do not know if the presence of this compound may have changed the DOC somehow.

So I do have a couple of questions:
a) is DOC soluble in ethanol? If so, then it may be a proof that the powder I have is NOT DOC or
b) Could the cetrimide have decomposed the DOC into something insoluble? according to very rough calculations about 20 mg of this compound entered my solution
c) Finally in the end, is the DOC ruined (if it was actually DOC)
 
Rorthron said:
however, to have some dosage control and preserve it I decided to dissolve it in Ethanol 96%.
Click to expand...
???
As a general rule, solutions are usually less stable than the anhydrous compound.


Rorthron said:
At the moment it is difficult for me to know if there anything dissolved
Click to expand...
Let the undissolved fraction sit, then take 1-3 drops from the clear supernatant, put them on a clean piece of glass and evaporate to dryness. Any remaining residue demonstrates previously dissolved contents (...well, including the cetrimide, but it's only 0.25% ).


Rorthron said:
...I found it contained cetrimide in 0.25%. I'm not concerned about this compound toxicity as this is sanitary alcohol for cleaning wounds.
Click to expand...
At least the german Wiki assigned both the "environmental hazard"- and "health hazard"-symbol. Doesn't sound like orange juice...
As far as I know is cetrimide only used externally, the farthest going applications being gargling solutions for mouth and throat.


Rorthron said:
The thing is that I do not know if the presence of this compound may have changed the DOC somehow.
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The compound acts as a phase-transfer catalyst. If you had the free amine, this could act as an auxiliary base to enable ethanol to maybe substitute the chlorine. It's not highly probable, due to the low nucleophilicity of EtOH on the one hand and deactivation of the phenyl-ring on the other hand, but maybe a small fraction would react at least in the long term.
Decomposition of the dissolved amine (e.g. by oxidation) is also thinkable and even more probably.
My highest bet goes to some kind of undeclared adulterant. Or a fake compound.


Rorthron said:
is DOC soluble in ethanol?
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The freebase most probable, most salts not very good or even insoluble.


The spectrum that you linked to was definitely not genuine and smelled fishy from the beginning. Furthermore sounds the whole description of your "DOC" suspicious. Nobody here will be able to tell you if your sample containes even traces of DOC of whatsoever. Provide a sharp melting point, color reactions (Marquis, Froede, etc.), a TLC or NMR resp. (GC/)MS if the latter are available to you.


Peace! - Murphy
 
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As you dont know if its a salt or base, just experiment :
Take a sample of your DOC/alcool and add some acid (lemon juce, vinegar), if DOC was an insoluble freebase, making a salt may be the trick.
If it not dissolve, add water (50%alcoolDOC/50%water).
If the salt is not soluble in high grade alcool, it should in 50% water.
 
it will be a salt if it is the correct material, DOC like DOB freebase (unless exceptionally pure) is an oil at room temperature.

amphetamine salts are somewhat soluble in 40% aqueous ethanol at least 5mg/ml, less soluble in isopropanol.

dilute the alcohol to say 50% then shake and warm the solids in the alcohol it should dissolve completely. The alcohol is not there to dissolve it, instead it is there to prevent bacterial growth in the solution.

if it doesn't dissolve it is not DOC.

then accept that you have probably been scammed.
 
vecktor said:
it will be a salt if it is the correct material, DOC like DOB freebase (unless exceptionally pure) is an oil at room temperature.

amphetamine salts are somewhat soluble in 40% aqueous ethanol at least 5mg/ml, less soluble in isopropanol.

dilute the alcohol to say 50% then shake and warm the solids in the alcohol it should dissolve completely. The alcohol is not there to dissolve it, instead it is there to prevent bacterial growth in the solution.

if it doesn't dissolve it is not DOC.

then accept that you have probably been scammed.
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I'm answering vektor, but thanks for your input Murphy and Dr Mamba!

Ok, I'm a bit relieved, I can assume now that, if it is it actually DOC, it was a salt. I added the same amount of water at 70 C, and it dissolved promptly! No traces whatsoever of suspension, and it was not even need to shake.

Also on the theme of the product authenticity, the vendor is mentioning that the first positive reports on the substance are coming, so it may actually be DOC. They will also publish soon the results of TL chromatography, so I guess they are worried as well, as they may also have been scammed!
 
Rorthron said:
Also on the theme of the product authenticity, the vendor is mentioning that the first positive reports on the substance are coming, so it may actually be DOC. They will also publish soon the results of TL chromatography, so I guess they are worried as well, as they may also have been scammed!
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Am I the only one disturbed by the vendors themselves not knowing definitively what the substance they are selling is? After the Haupt RC 2-cbfly incident you would have thought they would have learned.
 
vecktor said:
Am I the only one disturbed by the vendors themselves not knowing definitively what the substance they are selling is? After the Haupt RC 2-cbfly incident you would have thought they would have learned.
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I think that the situation is actually changing. I've bought many times several RCs from several vendors in 2 continents. I always trusted the vendors blindly. If I was getting 2C-E or 4-AcO-DMT I trusted it was so, and (fool of me) never did a simple test. My concern with the DOC batch was because of the concerns of the vendor, and they have been true enough to warn their customers and even stop the sale until some reports are available. This is a good thing. I just hope other vendors do the same and start sending GC/MS or NMR analysis and post other tests.
 
fryingsquirrel said:
From personal experience I can say DOC hcl dissolves quite well in ethanol.
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I still do not know if my batch is DOC or no, but from the answers here and what I've been reading, it depends on the amount of water present. Apparently my "DOC" dissolved quite well in 50% ethanol! I would guess that 70% ethanol (common value for sale in European pharmacies) would dissolve it also quite well. 96 % is really high grade and not too common in many countries.
 
The alcohol I used was everclear 190 proof, which would be 95%. It's available in liquor stores in the US, at least in my state. It dissolves every RC I've tried to dissolve in it, and I've tried quite a few.
 
DOC is readily soluble in ethanol/isopropyl alcohol with small percentages of water, and stable in it too from personal correspondence. It should be fully active in the 2-3mg range or 4-6mg if you're hardheaded. Start low and in the morning if you're new to psychedelic amphetamines, is my advice.
 
vecktor said:
Am I the only one disturbed by the vendors themselves not knowing definitively what the substance they are selling is? After the Haupt RC 2-cbfly incident you would have thought they would have learned.
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Oh no, you're definitely not the only one, who is disturbed by this development. But still, it looks like you belong to a dwindling minority.

And again no, I strongly believe that as long as there's money to be made, most vendors will not learn even the most basic lessons.


Peace! - Murphy
 
Sorry to be bringing this topic once again, but I think some more ellaborate discussion would be in order relative to DOC solubility. I will not include my own experiences as I still do not know if the compound I have is DOC, so this is just based on the reports of others.

As to ethanol and ethanol/water mixes, vektor referrred that amphetamine salts are soluble at least in 40% ethanol and MurphyClox referred insolubility of DOC salts in high grade ethanol. On the other hand, nuke noticed that DOC should be soluble in ethanol with small percentages of water, but it is not clear from that post if the salt or the freebase is in case. However here and in PD (the B&D DOC thread), people have been discussing immediate solubility in ethanol of DOC

In published reports by Shulgin (Pihkal #64) and on erowid, they refer that the hydrochloric salt has difficult solubility in Acetone (depending on temperature) but ready solubility in ethanol/ether (50/50). In this last report I guess that if ethanol was enough do dissolve it, it would be used, right?

So, my questions are: why are there conflicting reports? Could they be referring to different salts? which? Is it believable that freebase DOC may have circulated once and this is the reason why some reports are referring immediate solubility in >95% ethanol?

thanks for any help
 
you will never come across the freebase, period.

the freebase readily absorbs co2 from the air to make a carbonate salt it also slowly discolours and oxidises. there simply is no way that it is ever going to be made as a freebase as a final product form. If it is DOC it is going to be a salt.

5mg/ml is a low concentration and my guess is that small an amount will dissolve completely in pretty much any normal grade of ethanol (though possibly not absolute ethanol).

The ether is there in Shulgin description to reduce the solubility of the salt in the same way as acetone is used in other examples.

the solubility or not of the material in alcohol is a very poor way of determining what you have.

and as an aside Shulgins liquid chlorine method is know to produce overchlorinated material as a significant impurity.
 
vektor, thank you so much for the valuable information.

in the mean time I found one extra bit of information in The Major Supplier of laboratory chemicals, the one that produces hefty year catalogs present everywhere in Universities and labs [They're as legal as can be but nevertheless I do not know if I can cite them here or not, so better safe than sorry!]

Apparently DOI hydrochloride salt is soluble in 2mg/ml in ethanol and 10 mg/ml in water, so I can assume very similar solubility for DOC. I guess it all depends on the amount of ethanol used for solution.

[Edit: as the electronegativity of Iodine is higher than Chlorine, I believe I can further assume lower solubility of DOC compared to DOI in polar solvents, so perhaps 1.5 mg/ml could be a decent estimate of ethanol solubility - this would explain most everything]
 
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I admit my statement was merely a guess rather than based on own observation.
But to be honest, I still think that DOX-salts will have a hard time dissolving in absolute EtOH. Of course, absolute alcohols are not common and usually does lab-grade alcohol contain some percent water...

Sorry for the confusion. :(


- Murphy
 
Actually chlorine is more electronegative than iodine. I'd bet DOC would be more water soluble than DOI due to its higher polarity. I wouldn't bet on the same trend applying to EtOH though, I expect it could go either way.
 
skillet said:
Actually chlorine is more electronegative than iodine. I'd bet DOC would be more water soluble than DOI due to its higher polarity. I wouldn't bet on the same trend applying to EtOH though, I expect it could go either way.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my bad about the electronegativity, but my intuition was correct. All compounds with iodine are more soluble in polar solvents than compounds with chlorine. You can see that trend in most solvents, even alcohols. The atomic radius plays an important role here.

For DOC in ethanol the difference to DOI is perhaps even more drastic than my optimistic guess of 1.5 mg/ml.
 
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