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Delta-8 warning?

someguyontheinternet said:
Ah yes because we definitely know about the majority of biochemical interactions, I guess I must have missed the memo that all of the mysteries of life have been solved. Guess that puts me out of a job :(
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I guess I'm just saying that it might be beneficial to form a theory based on facts and previously seen results rather than saying, "It could happen.".
 
And I'm saying that things like this do happen and thalidomide is a great example of it

Small changes in molecular structure can mean big changes in protein binding, that's like biochemistry 101
 
So nothing sketchy has been found with delta 10 or 11? I thought delta 8 was naturally occurring but in small amounts in cannabis. I know some oil pens I have contain a very insignificant amount of delta 8, most of them don't but some do, like, 3% in the whole half gram cart or something. I've used delta 8 carts before and they just seemed like the mids of oil pens. You can get stoned but it takes a lot more
 
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someguyontheinternet said:
And I'm saying that things like this do happen and thalidomide is a great example of it

Small changes in molecular structure can mean big changes in protein binding, that's like biochemistry 101
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Whereas the other enantiometer does ultimately do the same thing.

Again, I'm looking for examples of this ever happening in any way with cannabinoid compounds being isomerised. That process won't even form an optical isomer.
You have been repeatedly making claims in various threads about the horrible dangerous compounds that might be produced by the rudimentary chemistry used on CBD by the legal cannabinoid industry. I simply thing that those claims are a bit far fetched and am asking if you have any evidence to back up that claim other than, "It's possible".
 
It only does the same thing because it gets converted by an enzyme to the other enantiomer

But I guess I'm just a lowly pharmacologist in training, so I don't have any good examples that seem to fit your requirements. How about asking a medicinal chemist? @AlsoTapered do you have any input on this?
 
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someguyontheinternet said:
It only does the same thing because it gets converted by an enzyme to the other enantiomer

But I guess I'm just a lowly pharmacologist in training, so I don't have any good examples that seem to fit your requirements. How about asking a medicinal chemist? @AlsoTapered do you have any input on this?
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That would be welcome. Since your OP was answering @Skorpio I would love his input as well.
 
someguyontheinternet said:
Perhaps you should read about thalidomide. Small differences in molecular structure can lead to big differences in protein binding. Any medicinal chemist worth their salt will tell you this

en.m.wikipedia.org

Thalidomide - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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I've never heard of thalidomide, thanks for the insightful comparison. I didn't know it was a positional isomer of a highly studied natural product which has various permutations approved as pharmaceuticals (see nabilone, a dimethylheptyl version of THC with a ketone). Your first-year pharmacology lectures seem so throrough. I dare say, you may even tell me about the discovery of propranalol or imatinib next, and let me tell you, I am perched on the edge of my seat!

These are all novel psychoactive substances. Avoiding them while pregnant is definately a great idea. There is always going to be some unknown with them, but one can make informed guesses based on previous SAR studies.

Due to the lack of an amine, these compounds will tend to interact with a far smaller set of proteins. Barry Sharpless famously tasted non-amine compounds his lab synthesized (with exceptions) due to this relative inertness. So there's an appeal to authority for you.

You can expect Cb1, Cb2, GPR55, GPR18, and TRPV channels as high affinity cannabinoid targets, and 5ht1a and d2H receptors as lower affinity targets (seen in cbd). Cannabinoid transport likely occurs via fatty acid binding proteins to both targets and metabolic enzymes, asTHC and CBD have logPs of 7.26 and 7.75 respectively (and inhibition of FABP5 decreases THC clearance, and greatly increases analgesic effects). I would expect toxicity of these compounds to occur through these routes.

My inference that these pseudo-phytocannabinoids are less problematic than the cannabinoids found in spice and such blends comes from the observations above, as well as the fact that the current prevalence of these compounds isn't killing people left and right (I did find a source for somebody dying after eating 10 grams of delta 8 containing gummies), however (assuming the deceased weighed100 kg) that puts the dosage well into the range of the predicted LD50 for delta 9 thc from animal studies. I would expect more potent analogs such as THCP to have a correspondingly lower LD50. However, if there is a penetrent and harmful side effect due to these it will not go unnoticed for long due to the large user base.

If you have specific concerns based on evidence or structural similarity of other compounds, by all means do share it.
 
It's the same thing as anything else. Because it's unregulated there is no wide range testing it's all completely voluntary.

If it's made wrong, or by shady companies it can be dangerous to the consumer. Just like fake dab pins, bootleg THC edibles, or even bad moonshine, anything in an unregulated environment has the potential to be dangerous.

If you have a safe regulated tested quality control product like certain vendors do. There's no problems. Just legalize it regulate it leave it alone.
 
I love it. It's like getting stoned without the paranoia. Super low doses too. No reason to smoke or vape it tho. I don't know the chemical process behind it I just know the end result which is happy me big appetite.

It's great for chronic pain, anxiety, and basically anything that marijuana would be used for just at 3/4 the intensity.

Or how I got into it was I used it as a booster I'd take some Delta 8 and then smoke a joint and be the highest I've ever been since high school.

In non-legal states like I'm in Texas it's great. Wonderful time. The problem becomes there are thousands of Delta 8 companies that don't bother testing their product so you end up with heavy metals, all types of contamination.

And some companies might be safe to consume but they don't balance the dose correctly. So one gummy might equal 50 gummies I've had that experience it's not fun at all.

So because it is in a gray area legally you have a lot of gray area suppliers and that's really the biggest problem that I've seen so far.
 
Skorpio said:
I've never heard of thalidomide, thanks for the insightful comparison. I didn't know it was a positional isomer of a highly studied natural product which has various permutations approved as pharmaceuticals (see nabilone, a dimethylheptyl version of THC with a ketone). Your first-year pharmacology lectures seem so throrough. I dare say, you may even tell me about the discovery of propranalol or imatinib next, and let me tell you, I am perched on the edge of my seat!

These are all novel psychoactive substances. Avoiding them while pregnant is definately a great idea. There is always going to be some unknown with them, but one can make informed guesses based on previous SAR studies.

Due to the lack of an amine, these compounds will tend to interact with a far smaller set of proteins. Barry Sharpless famously tasted non-amine compounds his lab synthesized (with exceptions) due to this relative inertness. So there's an appeal to authority for you.

You can expect Cb1, Cb2, GPR55, GPR18, and TRPV channels as high affinity cannabinoid targets, and 5ht1a and d2H receptors as lower affinity targets (seen in cbd). Cannabinoid transport likely occurs via fatty acid binding proteins to both targets and metabolic enzymes, asTHC and CBD have logPs of 7.26 and 7.75 respectively (and inhibition of FABP5 decreases THC clearance, and greatly increases analgesic effects). I would expect toxicity of these compounds to occur through these routes.

My inference that these pseudo-phytocannabinoids are less problematic than the cannabinoids found in spice and such blends comes from the observations above, as well as the fact that the current prevalence of these compounds isn't killing people left and right (I did find a source for somebody dying after eating 10 grams of delta 8 containing gummies), however (assuming the deceased weighed100 kg) that puts the dosage well into the range of the predicted LD50 for delta 9 thc from animal studies. I would expect more potent analogs such as THCP to have a correspondingly lower LD50. However, if there is a penetrent and harmful side effect due to these it will not go unnoticed for long due to the large user base.

If you have specific concerns based on evidence or structural similarity of other compounds, by all means do share it.
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How about something like cannabitriol?
en.m.wikipedia.org

Cannabitriol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

I could also bring up the case of tricyclic antidepressants and tianeptine as an example from a different drug class
 
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Well delta 8 THC is found naturally in the plant admittedly at much lower doses. When you compare them, a double bond moves ta slightly lower energy state and KEY is that all the patents do is to heat delta 9 to get delta 8 so one would presume that if you heat delta 9 (like smoking or vaping it), some of it will will convert into delta 8.

WO2021086675A2 - Conversion of cannabidiol or delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinolic acid to delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol and delta-8 tetrahydrocannabinol in nontoxic heterogeneous mixtures - Google Patents

A solvent-free method for converting CBD or delta-9 THC-A to delta-9 THC and delta-8 THC includes adding CBD to a reaction vessel, streaming an inert gas through the reaction vessel, heating the CBD while stirring to melt the CBD, stirring the melting CBD, adding concentrated hydrochloric acid...
patents.google.com

Now, HOW people carry out the conversion is important as unwelcome compounds may be formed or traces of reagent and/or solvent might be left in there. My point is that delta 8 isn't toxic BUT something toxic is creeping in there.
I know that one route was to dibrominate & then derominate to add a doule-bond and if some of the brominated intermediate made it's way to the end of the synthesis, it could be dangerous.

Are we sure that racemization doesn't occur when some methods are used.

There have been studies into delta 8 usage and no negative reports emerged.

www.fda.gov

5 Things to Know about Delta-8 Tetrahydrocannabinol – Delta-8 THC

Delta-8 THC products are not approved by the FDA and may put you at risk.
www.fda.gov www.fda.gov

All the 'toxic symptoms' sound exactly like someone taking too much. Panic attacks. The wording aout the single child seems odd.

'One pediatric case was coded with a medical outcome of death.'

Well, Google how many kids died after eating gummi bears laced with delta 9.....

Now, if that was unintentional and the child has asthma, a heart defect or other condition that would contraindicate using even delta 9 THC, I can well see the psychological effects resulting in dangerous changes to the body.

FYI I have tried delta 8 brownies as UK law isn't clear on a natural product being controlled by the PSA. It was very mild BUT the maker was an expert and we just got a light buzz, nothing major. Delta 8 is slightly LESS potent but maybe dose-response curve is steeper?

There are no comparisons with hospital admittions due to delta 9 THC so we have no way of gauging if overdoses/panic attacks are more common with delta 8.

Bottom line - the FDA is trying to provide a reason to ban delta 8 so that states that didn't make cannabis legal aren't discovering that someone found a way around the law. Delta 8 most certainly HAS been tested. The conclusion was that it was no more toxic than delta 9.

It's politics, not facts.
That is my opinion.

As for thalidomide (or aminorex or rofecoxib or permoline), history is littered by drugs whose danger could only be detected after years or even decades and I cannot help thinking that by now, if delta 8 really was toxic, it would have been spotted long ago.

I'm quite willing to be wrong but tobbaco and ethanol are VERY toxic in comparison and I don't see such shrill articles from roadsheets who should know better.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it if I obtained the cookies from a reliable Dutch source. Since the Dutch make it illegal to sell delta 9 to tourists, they have also been selling delta 8.... I don't see any Dutch scare stories...

If you aren't sure, send it to me and I assure you it will be WELL tested!!!
 
Right, there might be byproducts with unknown binding capacity from the reactions, these distillates being sold aren't highly purified either and compounds with similar boiling points will get carried over to the end product
 
The Dutch WILL use GC-MS & NMR so they WOULD spot an impurity. Blowing hot nitrogen through CBD or delta 9 and the ONLY test is that no delta 9 is left is hardly professional....

But the offer is open - even if you find bad stuff at least we can find out IF their is something like delta 10 in there....
 
Maybe the Dutch will go to those lengths but with the 2018 farm bill its a bit like the wild west with minimal testing, I don't think I've heard of any US company using NMR its all LC or GC MS and the results are usually like 90% d8, but what's the other 10%?
 
someguyontheinternet said:
How about something like cannabitriol?
en.m.wikipedia.org

Cannabitriol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

I could also bring up the case of tricyclic antidepressants and tianeptine as an example from a different drug class
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So when you use Wikipedia to look up papers, definately see if they are any good. The citation stating cannabitriol is an aromatase inhibitor is somewhat weak (and by that I mean completely garbage).

They did molecular modeling, and then measured the concentration needed to kill brine shrimp. There was never any functional assay (like measuring testosterone conversion to estrogen) that would validate their in silico binding at all. In silico experiments aren't worth the bits they consist of if you don't validate your conclusions.

It would be interesting if this was true, but I would want to see experiments that validate it at all. A cocrystal would be the best evidence, whole animal functional s would be plenty. Hell, even a cell culture with transfected receptors, and a comparison to other aromatase inhibitors would be something. They used vincristine as a positive control in the brine shrimp assay, so were just measuring a gross LD50.

Cannabinoid as Potential Aromatase Inhibitor Through Molecular Modeling and Screening for Anti-Cancer Activity | Dhaka University Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences

www.banglajol.info

Tianeptine is "tricyclic" but the buried sulfonamide in the center ring is completely novel. It isn't just a positional isomer or ring opened version of a known tricyclic antidepressant.

Also drug users were able to detect an increase in abuse potential relative to other tricyclics, and were abusing it IV long before it was known to be an opioid ligand. If there is a penetrant enough effect, the general population will register it.
 
Skorpio said:
So when you use Wikipedia to look up papers, definately see if they are any good. The citation stating cannabitriol is an aromatase inhibitor is somewhat weak (and by that I mean completely garbage).

They did molecular modeling, and then measured the concentration needed to kill brine shrimp. There was never any functional assay (like measuring testosterone conversion to estrogen) that would validate their in silico binding at all. In silico experiments aren't worth the bits they consist of if you don't validate your conclusions.

It would be interesting if this was true, but I would want to see experiments that validate it at all. A cocrystal would be the best evidence, whole animal functional s would be plenty. Hell, even a cell culture with transfected receptors, and a comparison to other aromatase inhibitors would be something. They used vincristine as a positive control in the brine shrimp assay, so were just measuring a gross LD50.

Cannabinoid as Potential Aromatase Inhibitor Through Molecular Modeling and Screening for Anti-Cancer Activity | Dhaka University Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences

www.banglajol.info

Tianeptine is "tricyclic" but the buried sulfonamide in the center ring is completely novel. It isn't just a positional isomer or ring opened version of a known tricyclic antidepressant.

Also drug users were able to detect an increase in abuse potential relative to other tricyclics, and were abusing it IV long before it was known to be an opioid ligand. If there is a penetrant enough effect, the general population will register it.
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And (sorry for using Wiki)...
aromatase inhibitor
"In women, side effects include an increased risk for developing osteoporosis and joint disorders such as arthritis, arthrosis, and joint pain. Men do not appear to exhibit the same adverse effects on bone health.[8"
So, cannabitriol isi something already found in pot, a metabolite of THC, and isn't likely a factor at all in trace quantities. Large quantities don't seem to be a horrible poison.

And, as has been said, there is a huge ongoing sampling of these CBD/THC derivitives going on as we speak with no significant adverse effects as yet.
As you so succinctly put it...
"My inference that these pseudo-phytocannabinoids are less problematic than the cannabinoids found in spice and such blends comes from the observations above, as well as the fact that the current prevalence of these compounds isn't killing people left and right"

Manufacturing by products have been mentioned numerous times as a possible issue probably avoided by using a reputable company.
No one thinks these products wouldn't benefit from quality control. Many supplements have been found to have adulterants.
But, I guess I'm just saying there has been a little hyperbole with the comparison to Thalidomide and all.

I did highlight "different drug class" when I quoted him as well.

Skorpio, you know what you are talking about, I can keep up with you, but it is an effort.
I will be still if you would like me to be.
 
My point wasn't about it being some poison but rather that a similar structure can bind to wildly different proteins based on small changes and there are byproducts that may have small changes with unknown binding capacity
 
someguyontheinternet said:
My point wasn't about it being some poison but rather that a similar structure can bind to wildly different proteins based on small changes and there are byproducts that may have small changes with unknown binding capacity
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(sigh)
Of course. And you were a bit alarmist with the Thalidomide analogy. It's unlikely that any changes would have effects that dramatic. It's all been said ad nauseum.
 
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