just found study specifically linking ketamine to cortical decay ;( sad day

[cdin]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3713393/

Results The results of lesions observed in all the 21 ketamine addicts were depicted in Table ​Table2.2. Those who had two or less regions in the brain with lesions were classified as light damage. Those that had three to four regions in the brain with lesions were classified as moderate damage, and those with five or more regions with lesions were classified as severe damage. The MRI lesions initially were observed as hyperintense spots (holes or patches) of degeneration in the superficial white matter of the cortex which appeared as early as 1 year after ketamine addiction (Figure ​(Figure1A),1A), while each lesions spread to the internal capsule by 3 years of addiction (Figure ​(Figure1B).1B). Slightly after, patches of hyperintense degeneration spots appeared in the basal forebrain (Figure ​(Figure2A),2A), cerebellum, and pons (Figure ​(Figure2B),2B), and diencephalon at 4 years of addiction (Figure ​(Figure2C).2C). Likewise, diffusion blockage was illustrated by FLAIR image in the parahippocampal gyrus and insula, also by 4 years of addiction (Figure ​(Figure3A),3A), while atrophy of the parahippocampal gyrus was observed a bit later by 5 years of addiction (Figure ​(Figure3B).3B). Atrophy of the other parts of cortex was first noted after 4 years of addiction, usually with atrophy on only a small region of the cortex (Figure ​(Figure4)4) and extended to two or three regions (usually frontal, parietal, and occipital) of the cortex by 7 years of addiction (Figure ​(Figure5).5). Hyperintense lesions were also observed in the corpus striatum by 6 years (Figure ​(Figure6).6). In this patient cohort, one patient had a combination of drugs and was taking ketamine together with amphetamine and ecstasy. He demonstrated early atrophy of cortex after taking the three drugs together in 0.5 years, in which the basal prefrontal gyrus rectus already exhibited significant atrophy (Figure ​(Figure7A)7A) when compared with control (Figure​(Figure7B).7B). Similarly, cortical atrophy also occurred early in another patient who had used a high dose of ketamine, in this case 3 g per day for 3 years (Figure ​(Figure8).8). After 7 years of addiction, in all other patients, lesions then appeared in the midbrain (Figure ​(Figure9).9). From 10 to 12 years of addiction, all lesion sites were as those described above.

 

[Doclad]

Can someone make a simple summary of this study? I'm not familiar with scientific jargon.


DocLad

 

[Coolwhip]

TLDR; Use ketamine like its tobacco and you get holes in your brain.

Personally I could never relate to people who had the urge to use ketamine chronically, MXE a little more so, but not ketamine. Always used it with about the same frequency of MDMA plus a couple multi day benders.

EDIT: I have a question though, is it common to refer to the participants in studies like this as addicts and not users? When does a chronic user cross the line to addict for the purposes of such studies? To me, and this may be true in this case, the word addict would apply to users who dose daily, or at least compulsively despite a desire to stop. Were usage patterns beyong length of habit described within? Would someone who has used ketamine once a week, or once a month, be classified as an addict by those crafting the study? Besides it being really important just how often they were dosing, the word addict seems kind of slanted and lacks objectivity to me; makes me worry about bias.

 

[Solipsis]

Yeah pretty sure I know this study from years ago, IIRC these addicts used a pretty crazy amount of K..

But maybe I don't Remember Correctly because I have holes in my brain.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

After a decade of addiction at high amounts? Yeah, maybe.

 

[cdin]

think maybe you underestimate the danger.

 

[Solipsis]

Tell us how you are estimating the danger? Taking a lot of ketamine isn't good for you, I don't think anybody is saying it is completely fine... but that doesn't mean you can really tell much either by case reports of people doing utterly massive amounts and/or combinations.

If you take amounts like those people and thought it would be fine then yes you'd definitely be underestimating the danger.

In my opinion the point is that the body can bounce back from detrimental effects as long as it isn't getting thoroughly overwhelmed especially chronically.

If it keeps you from taxing your body and mind chronically then sure let this be a serious warning - but just don't try to make blanket statements based on an amount of use which does not apply to most people.

By the way I think there can also be a degree of atrophy from dissociatives stopping your brain from properly interacting with the world alone just like muscles wasting away in comatose patients. And from my experience you can expect spatial and temporal orientation and language skills to suffer and for this to last a while - I have abused K and for a shorter period MXE - but I recovered from that in time. It's hard to say how well I could have functioned now without any of that but I am quite sharp.

My advice is: don't worry too much about the occasional use but definitely make sure you don't become a very frequent user (and easily an addict from that closeby level). Me telling you this has nothing to do with this study though. Similarly DXM has been known as a dumb down drug for a long time and MXE is known to have some cerebellar toxicity - none of this is news. Don't disregard that sadness you mentioned but just spread it a bit rather than acting like we have discovered something truly surprising.

 

[cdin]

Yeah, i meant - it is dangerous to do grams of K a day. There was a perception for a long time that K was "safe" I can say from my bladder damage and brain damage that this is not the case! I would certainly have pursued another path if I had been warned about the dangers inherent in dissociative use.

 

[sekio]

I'd imagine you'd get sick of poking yourself with IM needles every 2-4 hours, alternatively, your nose would be swollen shut after about a week (been there, done that).

This study reminds me of that Chinese study where they claimed to find brain defects in chronic ketamine users, however almost every one of them used other drugs (namely tobacco, but also MDMA and others), and looking at the MRI images I couldn't see any of the "defects" that were supposedly there. (disclaimer: I'm not a MRI tech (CT is more my gig)).

So does this mean that PCP is the best drug? I guess it does.

 

[Doclad]

I'd imagine you'd get sick of poking yourself with IM needles every 2-4 hours, alternatively, your nose would be swollen shut after about a week (been there, done that).

Since I registered at Bluelight I had the feeling that you had not taken any drugs. I have never read your experiences or Travel Reports (I do not say they don't exist, but I haven't found them).

Undoubtedly this publication has surprised me.


DocLad

 

[phenethylo J]

I haven'y used it nearly that much but am still worried about the cognitive effects do to the fact I had used it excessively at times Maybe the side effects I'm are just from being burnt out from weed or overthinking shit I haven't had an actual medical test to check for that sort of thing.

Could taking mxe and ketamine while on tramadol(an snri) exacerbate the neurotoxic effects? I was still prescribed Tramadol during the start of my dissociative use. It was 7 year ago and I know it was stupid then but had severe chronic pain and shit.

I'm not looking for a specific information to my issues just a general answer

 

[sekio]

very doubtful.

I have never read your experiences or Travel Reports (I do not say they don't exist, but I haven't found them).

That would be because I've never posted them.

 

[Doclad]

That would be because I've never posted them.

Yes, I guessed. For some special reason? Don't you feel like doing it?

People tend to emphasize their personal experiences, think that they may have some value and that it is worth sharing in the forum.
On the other hand, your publications are always instructive and "encyclopedic".

It's not a criticism at all, it seems interesting to me. Very few people limit themselves to going deep in science hiding their subjective experiences to others.


DocLad

 

[Asclepius]

Who'd have thunk it?!

 

[Coolwhip]

Sekio not do drugs? Honestly, I would be a little creeped out if he was some teetotaler.

 

[Doclad]

Why? Listen, I'm abstemious and I actively contribute in this forum with great enthusiasm. 8)

I've met some people who are interested in drugs at the scientific level but who would never take them.
It is not necessary to take drugs to understand how they work at to pharmacological level, in fact, this type of knowledge is limited to scientific experiments and methods.

I would not be surprised if Sekio didn't take drugs, I want to believe that what he has learned is based on his hours of study, precisely for this reason his comments are valuable to me. If he take drugs is great, in fact, when someone registers in Bluelight is giving many clues, but it's an irrelevant fact if we take into account the content of your contributions.


DocLad

 

[[éS]Infinite]

Oh god, figure 8 looks really extensive, especially since the patient was only using for 3 years (3g/day, but still). I wonder what sort of neurocognitive deficits that patient experiences. The brain stem lesion is also pretty concerning. Cool study though, hadn't seen it before.

 

[Coolwhip]

Why? Listen, I'm abstemious and I actively contribute in this forum with great enthusiasm.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with anyone here taking or not taking drugs, nor do I disagree with the rest of your post.

It's just that...after reading quite a number of Sekio's posts over the years it's pretty obvious his interest is beyond academic and for him to acquire the um, intimate knowledge he has concerning many facets of drug use/abuse without himself partaking I think would border on pathological.

There are just some things that are very hard to know/describe without experiencing them first hand, things that have little to do with academia, research, or even harm reduction. And for someone to be able to recount so many them in such accurate detail they have either experienced it, or spent an unhealthy amount of time imagining it.

edit: to be less abstract, its very rare for Sekio to come straight out and directly talk about ingesting drugs, as you say its not necessary to contribute positively to this community, but this is hardly the first time he has made allusions to it, many of which are hilariously accurate and I wouldn't expect them to come from someone who hadn't experienced it themselves.

 

[Coolwhip]

Oh god, figure 8 looks really extensive, especially since the patient was only using for 3 years (3g/day, but still).

I think, or at least like to think, it's as Solipsis and other's have said that we can't know the true history of said patients and it is highly unlikely that ketamine was the only drug they were doing and other than going about their day on a different plane of reality they were living healthy, full, lives.

And I couldn't even imagine trying to function while doing an ounce of ketamine a week. I mean, I could put down 3 grams in a single day, but I would have trouble cleaning and feeding myself for the period, let alone anything else. Although I am sure tolerance plays a huge role, and taking bumps here and there was never really my thing, honestly outside my first time using I'm not sure I ever snorted ketamine again, I can't stand the taste of it for one and it fucks me up in such a way that the thought of using it in public never crossed my mind. Some MXE in saline is a different story, but I still never had the urge to use it chronically.

And despite what this study shows, I imagine the biggest negative impact one notices as a result of ketamine addiction occurs everytime you undo your zipper, and not any impact on cognition...but that could change drastically as one ages and starts to become demented.

 

[Seppi]

Can someone make a simple summary of this study? I'm not familiar with scientific jargon.

Results The results of lesions observed in all the 21 ketamine addicts were depicted...

Chronic high-dose ketamine use causes brain damage; simply put, a lesion anywhere in the brain is a form of brain damage.