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Could you live believing in hard determinism?

Nom de Plume said:
Erh, you guys are aware that there exists many different kinds of determinism in philosophy, yes?

Apparently not.
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I do... I'm not anti-determinism. I'm just against the specific branch that completely ignores the existence of free will. I support biological determinism to an extent. Not to the extent that a scientist would, because I still believe in a soul and the supernatural. But by all means, I acknowledge the role determinism does have in the world and the truths that exist in it.
 
psychedelicsoul said:
I do... I'm not anti-determinism. I'm just against the specific branch that completely ignores the existence of free will. I support biological determinism to an extent. Not to the extent that a scientist would, because I still believe in a soul and the supernatural. But by all means, I acknowledge the role determinism does have in the world and the truths that exist in it.
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Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification.
 
Nom de Plume said:
Erh, you guys are aware that there exists many different kinds of determinism in philosophy, yes?

Apparently not.
Click to expand...

Erh, One would think that when I (and OP) specifically used the word HARD as a qualifier it would easy realize we are aware there are different "kinds" of determinism.
 
Nom de Plume said:
Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification.
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I actually believe that determinism exists by default but can be transcended. That is where I see the purpose of spirituality, to transcend those things. I believe that through through free will determinism can be overcome. I see the soul, the mind, and free will as all one entity. That entity is us. We are all those things. However, because we exist as mortal beings on this earth, determinism guides most of what goes on. However, while I believe that's how the world works most of the time, I still have faith that it can be transcended. I think the human soul can transcend and even change ones brain chemistry. However, unlike souls, brains are always subject to determinism.
 
^
Free will can exist within specified parameters and you still can have freedom to choose.
You don't have to have "total" freedom of choice to have autonomy.
 
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methamaniac said:
^
Free will can exist within specified parameters and you still can have freedom to choose.
You don't have to have "total" freedom of choice to have autonomy.
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I don't believe we do must of the time, but I still believe "total freedom" can happen. But it's a very spiritual concept and isn't an ordinary occurrence.
 
methamaniac said:
Erh, One would think that when I (and OP) specifically used the word HARD as a qualifier it would easy realize we are aware there are different "kinds" of determinism.
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There is no kind of determinism formally called "hard determinism". (Nomological and metaphysical determinism are sometimes colloquially termed "hard" determinism. But something tells me that's not what is meant here, as that's a very, very complicated precept which typically involves quantum physics, which I'm almost certain no one here has the mathematical proficiency to ratiocinate on and philosophise about to any appreciable degree—including myself.)


Thus, I interpreted "hard" to mean extreme. Saying hard determinism is like saying hard religion. It leaves open the question as to what extreme of determinism the discussion is supposed to be about.


Hard Ājīvika? Hard Bṛhaspatya? Hard biological determinism? Hard Vaiśeṣika? Hard nomological determinism (I'd like to witness you try to dispute or even explain its less shallow and superficial Wikipedia-derived definition; I could use a good guffaw at a grotesquely gauche gaffe)?

Or even hard physical, or theological, or environmental, or linguistic, or economic, or technological, or cultural, or logical, or adequate, or behavioural, or psychological, etc., determinism? Or hard necessarianism, or hard fatalism, or hard "soft" determinism, or hard prdeterminism?


Or...nevermind. I'll simplify it with a question: What determinism is hard, how do we decide it is hard or not hard, and what does "hard" even mean in this context?
 
^ It means you actually have no free will.
Period. In any context.

You are making this "harder" than it should be.
 
methamaniac said:
^ It means you actually have no free will.
Period. In any context.

You are making this more "hard" than it should be.
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No, I'm trying to extricate the inane from the sensible.

Addendum: and determinism does not mean a lack of free will in every context. Nuance, neophyte. Learn to recognize it.
 
No, I'm trying to extricate the inane from the sensible.
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Well, in that case, maybe you should start with defining the qualifications for a "strict determinist".
Being that you label yourself as one.

Addendum: and determinism does not mean a lack of free will in every context. Nuance, neophyte. Learn to recognize it
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Nobody here has said that. I don't know why you keep repeating this mantra. We are/were specifically talking about hard determinism.
It's not our personal made up concept. Try Wikipedia "hard determinism".
And as far as strict determinism, I wasn't aware it allowed for human autonomy.
 
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^ That means nothing to someone who has no idea what a Carvaka Hindu is/believes.
All I am asking is do you believe we have free will to choose our actions? Yes, No, .....
yes and no? Do you believe there are limitations?etc..
 
methamaniac said:
^ That means nothing to someone who has no idea what a Carvaka Hindu is/believes.
All I am asking is do you believe we have free will to choose our actions? Yes, No, .....
yes and no? Do you believe there are limitations?etc..
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It's very complicated. If you're interested, read a little about it and get back to me.
 
Thanks, but no thanks. TBO, not even interested enough to google it.
My questions were pretty simple. I shouldn't have to research what Carvaka Hinduists believe in order for me to understand your answers to them.
It's cool tho.
 
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Nom de Plume said:
Or...nevermind. I'll simplify it with a question: What determinism is hard, how do we decide it is hard or not hard, and what does "hard" even mean in this context?
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Causal determinism is the thesis that everything is determined by antecedent events and the laws of nature. There are some who believe that causal determinism is compatible with free will, this view is often referred to as soft determinism, you may be more familiar with the term compatibilism to refer to this view. There are those who believe free will and causal determinism are incompatible, this view is often referred to as hard determinism, it is also known as metaphysical determinism.

A quick google search would have clarified this for you, the terminology is not uncommon.
 
I believe in hard determinism, in that I believe much more than I don't that there is absolutely no free will and every choice you will ever make, everything that will happen and has happened is set on stone and absolutely nothing whatsoever can change it.

But, you still have a satisfactory illusion of free will and still have moral culpability.

How can the two coexist,it's a good question. In Calvinism and similar Christian beliefs, there's a concept known as unconditional election. Which is the idea god has chosen a few elect to go to heaven and everyone else is damned. Those chosen and those damned can do absolutely nothing to change their destiny. No matter what they do, their fate is predetermined by god. But despite that, everyone still has to try and be godly and good in gods eyes, because hopefully, if you're good, you're good BECAUSE you are one of gods elect. Not that by being good you will become an elect, you always were and were good as a result. So even if it's predetermined, by doing the right thing you hope that you're doing it because that was your destiny as one of gods chosen to go to heaven.

It's similar with determinism of free will. If you find out it's all set in stone, and you go out and cause chaos and destruction because you can't help it, it's fate. Yes you were always going to find out, and always were going to have that reaction. You should still continue to try and be moral, for the same reason atheists are moral. For the benefit of society and bettering of human existence. Because even if it's set in stone. You should do the best you can as if you did have free will and hope that good things turn out to have been what was always predetermined. And you still have moral culpability, because even if you were predetermined to be bad, your punishment can be considered predetermined too. You still need to be stopped in the hopes predetermination turns out to have predetermined you would be prevented from harming people. There is no point in living as if free will doesn't exist because you don't know what the predetermined is going to be. So do the best you can and hope that that's what was what was predetermined. Not you losing your shit cause you feel you're not in control. People who believe in free will can be moral, and also immoral, so why should determinism mean you must be immoral and not care. You can still be moral, you can choose to do that. The fact that choice was always what you were going to chose is no less legitimate than choosing the opposite. So be moral not because you do or don't have a choice, but because you're working on the belief that hopefully people being good to each other was what was determined. And you being punished for being bad and not getting away with it hopefully is what was not what would always have happened. Cause you and everyone else are still having to experience this human story unfold. And none of us can skip ahead.
 
I belive in what you have been describing as hard determinism. There is no soul, and all events in existence have followed physical laws from the big bang until this very moment. Due to this there is absolutely no free will.

The other side of my beliefs is the importance of chaos theory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
While on a philosophical level there may be no free will, in practice all of the rules of the universe are so complex and require such inhuman precision that modeling the universe is pretty much impossible. (A good question that I cannot answer myself is whether in theory it is possible to model the universe withen the universe, but that is a different can of worms altogether).

In effect we have a facsimile of free will because it is realisticly impossible to determine the future, and even if we have no free will, we react how we have been raised to react and act like ourselves. Not having free will doesn't change the fact that I am me.
 
Skorpio said:
A good question that I cannot answer myself is whether in theory it is possible to model the universe withen the universe, but that is a different can of worms altogether
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shit, i know what you mean
 
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