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Questions on Chemical Properties of THCa, etc.

A couple of points to make. Firstly, it is important not to conflate the argument that decarboxylating is not always necessary with the argument that it doesn't work and is always superfluous. Certain people have said to me in the past that they do not believe edibles made with weed that is not decarbed first can get you high and that it must be a placebo effect when this is patently untrue. Secondly if you read my post above it outlines why decarboxylating can in certain instances even be counterproductive, especially when the weed is old and to reiterate, aging weed, drying and curing all contribute to the natural process of decarboxylation, not just heating in an oven. If the weed is old, the weed is baked to decarb prior to use and is heated for an extended period because the recipe the weed is used in calls for it, you can easily overshoot and end up losing psychoactive THC.

It's not cut and dry and it requires a judgement call based on a number of factors. Most of the time it's of benefit, other times possibly not.
 
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Unless your weed is actually several years old, you need to decarb it to make edibles. Or else you need to use insane amounts like 1 gram or more per dose (a typical dose for me is .3-.4 and it's a strong, long lasting high). Since almost no one knows how old their weed is, and since the vast majority of weed sold is not several years old, it's better to decarb. Because the negatives of decarbing (which are minimal) are less of a risk than wasting your weed. The cases where decarbing is unnecessary certainly exist, but are a small minority.

If the weed is old, the weed is baked to decarb prior to use and is heated for an extended period because the recipe the weed is used in calls for it, you can easily overshoot and end up losing psychoactive THC.

I've never made a bunk edible because of decarbing, including edibles made partially of ABV. The idea that it can ruin your weed is both widespread and inaccurate. The majority of bunk edibles are due to too little heat, despite being blamed on the opposite. If you do the minimal amount of research necessary and do a little experimenting you will not ruin an edible ever again.

I decarb every edible I make, none of them are duds, and I don't use more than I'd use to smoke.
 
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Two years is the end point at which pretty much all THCa converts to THC. Well before that point, even after drying and curing for just a month or two, there will still be significant amounts of THC. LOOK at the graph above, you will see that when you're heating bud at the temps shown such as temps used in cooking, for shorter periods you are still decarboxylating your weed. Drying and curing in addition to the heating in many recipes will have a cumulative effect such that prior heating won't necessarily be essential all the time - you just have to use your judgement based on the situation. I do advise doing it in most of the time but not in a significant minority of cases, especially with older bud and recipes using heat for a long periods of time.

"Since almost no one knows how old their weed is". You won't know because you don't grow. Plenty of people do nowadays though.

I've made canna chocolate without bothering to heat my bud beforehand with about 0.3g per dose many times of times and it's always worked. I normally used to cure for at least a few months to anywhere up to a year. Curing for long periods is not that uncommon amongst growers.
 
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Two years is the end point at which pretty much all THCa converts to THC.
This is completely meaningless. How the bud is stored is going to determine the length of the time to decarb.

Imagine a bud left out in the air versus a bud in a vacuum seal jar. The bud in the jar is going to retain water better which in turn will slow down the decarb process.

Claiming a time frame on this is silly.

IIRC the bud was cured for about 4-6 months. I normally cure for at least that length of time.
This is so rare it's almost unheard of.
 
The main disagreement I have is your statement that decarbing and cooking can easily destroy THC. If you're baking, the temps aren't even getting near to that. Same if you're decarbing at proper temps and times.

when you're heating bud at the temps shown such as temps used in cooking, for shorter periods you are still decarboxylating your weed.

I don't disagree. It can be built into your recipe. The problem is most anti-decarb fanatics demand low heat, short cook times, and high doses.

You won't know because you don't grow. Plenty of people do nowadays though.

If you're present through the growing and curing process, then you do have the information needed to make that call. But most people don't, and most weed you buy will test at a very low THC content, very high THCa.

I've made canna chocolate without bothering to heat my bud beforehand with about 0.3g per dose many times of times and it's always worked.

What temperature? How long?

I normally used to cure for at least a few months to anywhere up to a year. Curing for long periods is not that uncommon amongst growers.

Do you have statistics? Because everything I've read indicates the majority of weed around tests with a lot of THCa and almost zero THC.
 
This is completely meaningless.

No it's not.

How the bud is stored is going to determine the length of the time to decarb.

I'm sure it does have an effect but that's a bit of a red herring.

Claiming a time frame on this is silly.

Freshly harvested cannabis contains a large amount of THC in the form of THCA. Most of the acid will be converted to THC during a period of up to 2 yrs but by this point most of the THC will have oxidised into CBN.

That is the end point, but before then and up until vaguely around this point THCA converts to THC naturally through decarboxylation. You can use this knowledge to judge whether or not to heat prior to cooking your weed in edibles.

This is so rare it's almost unheard of.

Whatever you say. It's besides the point anyway.

The main disagreement I have is your statement that decarbing and cooking can easily destroy THC. If you're baking, the temps aren't even getting near to that. Same if you're decarbing at proper temps and times.

This says to me you don't really understand the process going on since the temps don't even have to exceed room temp to destroy the THC given a long enough time frame (see above graph). In particular if your weed is older (yes of course not everyone has old weed lol) or if your weed is being cooked for a long period or a higher temp for less time. Again, it's important to look at the graph and understand what is going on.

I don't disagree. It can be built into your recipe. The problem is most anti-decarb fanatics demand low heat, short cook times, and high doses.

Well I would disagree with that approach but there seem to be other people on the other side of the fence unwilling or unable to understand why heating prior to use in a recipe involving heat would be unnecessary.

If you're present through the growing and curing process, then you do have the information needed to make that call.

Yes I know, that's exactly my point.

But most people don't, and most weed you buy will test at a very low THC content, very high THCa.

Sure, that is because it new weed that has probably not been cured for very long, let alone has there been much time since it was taken off the drying rack

What temperature? How long?

I don't know off the top of my head. I can't remember how long it was either to be honest, I would have to look it up.

Do you have statistics? Because everything I've read indicates the majority of weed around tests with a lot of THCa and almost zero THC.

See above.
 
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Most of the acid will be converted to THC during a period of up to 2 yrs but by this point most of the THC will have oxidised into CBN.
Again, you have failed to provide a control group in your scientific experiment results of "2 years".

How the pot is stored completely changes your results. Without a control group, you have no argument.
 
Again, you have failed to provide a control group in your scientific experiment results of "2 years".

I didn't carry out an experiment. It's not set in stone but the a couple of years figure is cited from a number of texts I've read over the years from a number of leading authors. Robert Clarke is probably one of the most famous scientists in the field of cannabis-related sciences.

How the pot is stored completely changes your results.

Strawman argument. My original point wasn't about the effect storage has on the rate of the conversion of THCA to THC or the rate of the conversion of THC to CBN. You are completely missing the point.

Without a control group, you have no argument.

LOL
 
You could be of help and source this claim so I don't have to read every boring Robert Clarke book to find out what you are referring to.

How the pot is stored has everything to do with your argument here.

Pot can be stored at varying levels of oxygen, (lack of) water and heat. All of these are the exact elements that you agree to be of AID when decarbing.

Why do you think how the weed is stored for 2 years doesn't matter? That is silly.
 
Do you have statistics? Because everything I've read indicates the majority of weed around tests with a lot of THCa and almost zero THC.

Seriously are you getting this info out of nowhere because that is way off base.

After less than 30 seconds on Google it's easy to find plenty of testing companies using HPLC analysis to give you the typical results of weed testing.

Here's some info from just one lab:

THC is psychoactive, while THC-A is not, though it is thought to have other beneficial properties, such as ant-inflammatory action.1 In the cannabis plant, THC-A is formed via biosynthesis in the cannabis trichomes. The carboxylic acid group in THC-A starts to decompose upon heating above ~70°C (~160°F), releasing CO2 gas and leaving behind THC. UV light can also cause this transformation. In most living trichomes, the THC-A is not significantly decomposed. Using Steep Hill Halent’s (SHH) liquid chromatography (LC) analysis method, we find that the THC-A:THC ratio is sometimes as high as 30:1 in some plants, while others are close to 1:1. Typically, however, the ratio is between 10:1 and 3:1. Patients who want THC-A (or any other cannabinoid acid) in their medicine should never heat it (for example, MS patients have therapeutic effects with less side effects when using unheated cannabis1) – even leaving it in a hot car in the summer can cause THC-A to degrade. People who want more THC in their medicine should heat it before (or during) consumption.

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I understand the ratio of THCA to THC is even used to estimate the age of weed.
 
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You could be of help and source this claim so I don't have to read every boring Robert Clarke book to find out what you are referring to.

How the pot is stored has everything to do with your argument here.

Pot can be stored at varying levels of oxygen, (lack of) water and heat. All of these are the exact elements that you agree to be of AID when decarbing.

Why do you think how the weed is stored for 2 years doesn't matter? That is silly.

Read the post I just made above ^^. As for the source of R Clarke's book, he discusses it in his Hashish book and he discusses cannabinoid biosynthesis and storage in Marijuana botany as well as Cannabis Evolution and Ethnobotany.

Jesus, again, OF COURSE storage has an effect on the decarboxylation process. However, all things being equal, the THC in bud stored properly will mostly degrade to CBN and the THCA converted to THC within a couple of years.
 
So you agree that without explaining your control group to us, your results are meaningless.
 
THCa needs to be heated at temps higher than the body will create. Some will convert to thc if eaten, but not nearly as much as if it is exposed to higher temps outside the body first. That is why cannabis is smoked or cooked. THCa itself has much different action from THC poetically closer to THCV. Who knows? The science is still being studied.


As far as THCa content in bud I've never seen a single test result on bud or hash that isn't mainly THCa with one tenth or so being THC. There's tests done on hash /cannabis showing the thc content when heated and made into a smoke, but no one shows those results at the THCa when converted is about 3/4 the content so instead of 29% THCa+THC it's closer to 23%-26% THC. It's obvious what results someone who is trying to make a profit will show.... The biggest total amount and not the realistic test.
 
Whatever you say. It's besides the point anyway.

No, it's highly relevant. Decarbing is the best course of action because the vast majority of weed purchased does not have almost any THC in it. Because no one cures for that long.

This says to me you don't really understand the process going on since the temps don't even have to exceed room temp to destroy the THC given a long enough time frame (see above graph). In particular if your weed is older (yes of course not everyone has old weed lol) or if your weed is being cooked for a long period or a higher temp for less time. Again, it's important to look at the graph and understand what is going on.

I've looked at the graphs, read the science, and done an extensive amount of experimenting. The likelihood of having weed so old that decarbing would have a negative effect is laughably small. And if it's that degraded by the time you get it, decarbing isn't really the issue.

I don't know off the top of my head. I can't remember how long it was either to be honest, I would have to look it up.

How convenient. Whenever someone argues that decarbing isn't necessary they either can't give any information about their "successful" recipes or they call for huge doses.

I didn't carry out an experiment.

Yes, that's clear. The people who have done experiments find that weed almost always has tiny amounts of THC and large amounts of THCa. They find that heating for specific times at specific temperatures converts the latter. My own experiments, using different strains, different temperatures, different times, different carriers, and different methods have resulted in 100% success rate when I decarb. If you personally grow your own and choose to age it for an absurd amount of time, then I agree you may be able to skip the decarb, or incorporate it into your recipe. For the other 99+% of cannabis users, decarbing is a necessity to making edibles.
 
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No, it's highly relevant. Decarbing is the best course of action because the vast majority of weed purchased does not have almost any THC in it. Because no one cures for that long.

If you had bothered to actually read my first post in this thread you would understand that it is not relevant because I didn't give a blanket recommendation for everyone to forgo heating their bud prior to using in edibles. Had I done so, the fact that it is more common for the ratio of THCA to THC to be high would be relevant. Since I said that (all things being equal of course) by two years most of the THCA converts to THC and most of the THC to CBN, it's obvious most bud should heated. I said it should be, explicitly, not implicitly! You like to try and paint me as having made out that decarboxylating is somehow not necessary for many people. If you'd bothered to fucking read what I said you would realise this isn't the case!

I've looked at the graphs, read the science, and done an extensive amount of experimenting.

Oh yeah I bet you have 8) You are so full of shit. You haven't actually done any reading probably outside websites like Blue light based on your understanding and knowledge shown here.

The likelihood of having weed so old that decarbing would have a negative effect is laughably small. And if it's that degraded by the time you get it, decarbing isn't really the issue.

Yes I know it is less likely. The point I was trying to get across is not how likely it is, because the reader can work that out for themselves based on their own circumstances.

How convenient. Whenever someone argues that decarbing isn't necessary they either can't give any information about their "successful" recipes or they call for huge doses.

What the fuck are you talking about? I melted the chocolate, so whatever temperature chocolate melts at (it's quite low iirc). So work it out yourself. Read what I wrote above in this post. Given the fact I cure for so long it's not surprising I didn't need to decarb beforehand. THC acid will have been lower and THC higher, such that the heating of the chocolate was sufficient.

The people who have done experiments find that weed almost always has tiny amounts of THC and large amounts of THCa.

Yes for relatively fresh weed (I don't necessarily mean weed not dried yet), that is true. I never intended to say otherwise.

They find that heating for specific times at specific temperatures converts the latter.

Look at the graph above.

My own experiments, using different strains, different temperatures, different times, different carriers, and different methods have resulted in 100% success rate when I decarb.

Jesus, when are you going to get that I never said your decarbing would not be successful, especially considering it's not going to be aged for very long.

If you personally grow your own and choose to age it for an absurd amount of time, then I agree you may be able to skip the decarb, or incorporate it into your recipe. For the other 99+% of cannabis users, decarbing is a necessity to making edibles.

I don't grow now but when I did, I would cure my bud for 6-12 months. That is not an absurd amount of time as quite a lot of growers that do cure their bud for this long find it smokes better, but each to their own. Yes I am aware most growers probably don't cure for that length of time.

Again, yes I know heating before making edibles is necessary for most cannabis users. That why I said this in my first post in this thread...

To decarb your plant material place bud or trip on a baking tray spread out and place into an oven set at 223F (106°C). After 25 mins use in your recipe.

I'll write this in caps for you, I KNOW MOST PEOPLE WILL NEED TO DECARB THEIR WEED PRIOR TO EATING. I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE!

That is why I said with old weed perhaps it might not be necessary and it is a judgement call. A judgement call i.e. the person makes a decision based on their own circumstances according to the facts.
 
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This is completely meaningless. How the bud is stored is going to determine the length of the time to decarb.

Imagine a bud left out in the air versus a bud in a vacuum seal jar. The bud in the jar is going to retain water better which in turn will slow down the decarb process.

Claiming a time frame on this is silly.


This is so rare it's almost unheard of.

All things being equal, by two years most of the THCA converts to THC and most the THC to CBN, effectively causing the weed to lose the bulk of its psychoactive content.

Hey it could be stored improperly and a lot of things can happen to the bud but the bottom line is that by two years, all things being equal, most of the THCA converts to THC and most of the THC converts to CBN. It's not going to change the fact that by this point this will happen. For most cannabis users, whether their bud is stored correctly in an airtight container like a jar or if it's stored in a wooden box, the same will be true.

Unfortunately it is not possible for the average cannabis user to avoid this from happening, otherwise I would save bud for years like a fine wine.

What you don't seem to understand is the importance of why I stated two years in the end point. It's an ongoing process, so cannabis users that do cure their bud for long period to enhance flavour and potency (not as long as the extreme of 2 years since again that is the end point lol) are able to factor in age into the decision of whether to heat on a baking tray to decarboxylate and importantly for how long to do so, in addition to the heating in the recipe itself. When you heat the bud in the recipe you are still decarboxylating the bud so this is also a factor to be considered.

When you're using oil* to make edibles, usefully people can judge how long to heat to decarboxylate the THCA content based on the bubbling when they heat in an oil bath. At about 70% decarboxylation, we actually start converting THC to CBN at a faster rate than we are converting THCA to THC and that's why in the graph above the THC curve starts to fall, so it's an indicator that tells you you're on the right track.

Never forget that decarboxylation occurs naturally with time and temperature, as a function of drying, but we can shorten the amount of time needed simply by adding more heat.

* I prefer using oil in edibles because it avoids a grassy taste one sometimes gets with edibles made with bud and the edibles can be more potent, but each to their own - it's my own personal preference.
 
I disagree with pretty much everything you just said AE.

You are going to need to quote specific sources for me to continue this conversation with you.
 
You'll disagree with everything I say regardless of what I say. You don't really engage in proper debate or discussion at the end of the day so I don't think there is any point in having this conversation with you. I have given you academic info to refer to if you want to but you won't. You just parrot 'source please' like it's your go to default argument, despite the fact you don't ever seem to give any of your own when you make claims. The problem is you never address the substance of any of the points people make in a discussion and you just miss the point and use strawman arguments while deliberately being obtuse.
 
You're claim of "2 years" is ambiguous at best.

I'll ask one more time for an ACTUAL source, but I really don't think you can do it.
 
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