My whole child hood I was a happy kid. Growing up I was never depressed or had anxiety or anything like that. I had never even heard the term panic attack until I was 23. So at age 17 I did my first hit of e and loved it. Naturally I did more that lead to expierimenting with other drugs. Different combos of stuff. Long story short I liked drugs and loved ecstasy. So when I was 22 one night I had taken about 4 pills through out the night not all at once. Smoked some pot did some k took some acid ended up kandy flippin and a line of coke I believe. Well a few hours into everuthing my heart was raising and it freaked me the hell out. Then it felt like someone was taking a knive and stabbing me right in the heart with it. It would come and go about every 2 minutes. I didn't tell anyone because I was embarassed and I thought maybe this is just a bad trip. Well it lasted hours I finally came off everything and crashed hard. I told myself I'm done with drugs that was the pure definiton of the word frightend. The whole I'm not doing drugs thing didn't last long. Rolled two more times both times succesful. Rolled again, just e no mixture and that horrible feeling came back. By 23 I had rolled def over a couple 100 times and these extreme feelings of doom and danger started to happen when I was sober. A lot. So the doctor told me I was having panic attacks put me on xanex then klonopin. Well I'm 30 now last time I rolled I was 25. So 5 years of no ecstasy and this still happens to me almost every other day. At least now I know when they start I pop my klnopin before it gets bad. I know drugs have something to do with these panic attacks but do u think it could be from e alone ? Even 5 years without using it. All I've done since 25 is opiates and never had a panic attack while on them.
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Does ecstasy cause panic attacks ?
- Thread starter Jason1981
- Start date
Honestly I have no clue with the pill count. It was so long ago for a 8 year period. Started out eith just one by the end I could take 7 a night just to feel like I did in the begining. I only take the klonopins once a week if that. I'm supposed to take them 3 times a day daily but like anything else u build a tolerance so I found it better to take them if its one of those panic attacks I absoluetly know I can't ride out. I just never had them till after heavy ecsatsy use. The doctorsi tell me that's the cause except for my new pdoc. He thinks it could have been an underlying condition I had and ecstasy use caused a chemical embalance in my brain. Id actually love to roll again I know one would rock my world after 5 years but reading about all these fake pills and shit gets me worried. Id probably pop one and wouldn't be able to get off my mind "what if this is some horrible shit" lol
Renz Envy
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,338
My theory is that neurotoxicity from MDMA and other stimulants CAN cause the user to develop panic disorder. I do not feel like this is permanent, however.
I only get them while on a stimulant. Combining stimulants and depressants is an easy way to bring out the disorder in anyone.
To build on this, benzos will only make the situation worse in the end. So will drinking alcohol.
Panic attacks cannot kill you.
Find a bag and breath into it.
You will be fine.
Edit: Try supplementing L-Glutamine, Valerian root, L-Tryptophan, GABA and Kava Kava.
Get 8-9 hours of sleep, exercise regularly and find a way to get off all GABA-ergic drugs for a few months.
I only get them while on a stimulant. Combining stimulants and depressants is an easy way to bring out the disorder in anyone.
To build on this, benzos will only make the situation worse in the end. So will drinking alcohol.
Panic attacks cannot kill you.
Find a bag and breath into it.
You will be fine.
Edit: Try supplementing L-Glutamine, Valerian root, L-Tryptophan, GABA and Kava Kava.
Get 8-9 hours of sleep, exercise regularly and find a way to get off all GABA-ergic drugs for a few months.
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
I have a bit of experience to offer...
First, Renz is right - benzos are BAD for long-term use.
There is no way around this truth.
They are remarkably safe for short-term use, even when acute reactions to other drugs (like MDMA, meth, crack) are suspected. They increase GABA in the brain which directly opposes the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate.
But the brain attempts to maintain homeostasis by slowly increasing glutamate.
When the benzo is withdrawn or a dose is missed, glutamate levels can SOAR.
Many people have minor freakouts after short-term use, and some long-term users have such severe panic attacks that they feel like they are having HEART ATTACKS. And sometimes they do.
The overuse of benzos became an obvious problem, with ER visits among benzo users exceeding those of ALL illegal drugs in 2008!
In The Dark Side forum you can find threads by long-term benzo users that make recovery from other drugs look like a CAKE WALK.
I have read literature and anecdotal reports on the recovery process from many different drugs, and let me tell you that NOTHING scares me as much as benzos or cocaine. Even MDMA, heroin, and meth users with severe problems display a trend towards recovery of normal function within 1-3 years.
But cocaine (crack?) users redose SO often that they obliterate their central reward pathways and they demonstrate a loss of executive function exceeding that of other drugs up to FIVE YEARS. And that is just how long they are followed for, not when they improve.
Anecdotes on benzo users describe an utter lack of emotion.
For 3-5 years in extreme cases.
We are talking a hollow, empty, NON-HUMAN existence.
They talk about not even having the emotion to kill themselves.
Again - it is the length of time that truly sets these two drugs apart from the rest.
Long-term sufferers can exist with many drugs, of course.
Marijuana for example can set off a life-long bout with schizophrenia.
But the point is that benzos have solid documentation that shows a profound risk to long-term users.
What is going on?
High levels of glutamate must be removed from neurons or it literally excites them to death!
Benzos can cause such major increases in glutamate that certain brain regions fall victim to a toxic cascade known as apoptosis.
One such area of the brain is the hypothalamus, which is vulnerable to glutamate toxicity.
This is one reason that MSG, or mono-sodium glutamate, is NOT recommended as a meat tenderizer.
Sure, it does a great job of softening meat cells...
Glutamate toxicity is part of the toxicity of MDMA and it is even suspected as a possible cause of schizophrenia.
But a very important finding from rat studies is that hypothalamic neurons can regenerate after injury.
This is not a known site of adult neurogenesis, but it was shown that after glutamate toxicity stem cell proliferation was seen in this region. How these new cells are integrated into existing circuits, or if they are, could not be determined. Nonetheless it is an exciting example of possible neurogenesis outside of known regions.
Panic attacks and glutamate go hand in hand.
Especially when chest pain occurs - this is a sign of hypothalamic injury.
The HYP controls many autonomic functions such as digestion, body temperature, and heart-rate.
It also serves as the command center for the entire endocrine and adrenal system.
Known as the HPA, or hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, this structure serves as the connection between our body, thoughts, and emotions. The HPA is the target of all anti-depressants, especially SSRIs (and even ECT).
Altered HPA function is seen with severe depression, psychotic disorders, and during recovery from drug addiction.
Or following a toxic dose.
The hypothalamus sits at the front of the brainstem just before the cortex.
Serotonin nerves extending from the raphe nuclei into the frontal lobes travel through the hypothalamus.
Serotonin is the 'brain-gut' circuitry and it primarily is found in the intestines.
But in the brain, serotonin makes up the most dense neurotransmitter system and it interacts with dopamine and diverse brain functions in ways that escape our understanding. But it is known that serotonin activity in the highest brain regions, such as the prefrontal cortex just behind the forehead, causes significant improvements in mood and HPA axis function. Potentially through targeting dopamine into specific brain circuits, including one that connects to the nucleus acumbens in the limbic system (reward circuitry).
Of course these serotonin nerves travel through the hypothalamus and thus derive their impact upon the pituitary, the master endocrine gland, and the adrenal glands that sit atop your kidneys. And both MDMA and LSD rely on serotonin for their magical effects.
LSD is an agonist, or activator, of 5HT (5,hydroxytryptamine or serotonin) 2A receptors in the PFC.
And MDMA is a system-wide serotonin releasing agent that also targets the PFC.
The serotonin nerves in the prefrontal region are the furthest from their point of origin in the brainstem.
It is here that they are thinnest and most fiber-like.
Not only does this make them more vulnerable to toxicity but they are the LAST to recover during drug abstinence.
And serotonin releasers like MDMA are indeed 'toxic' to higher cortical axons.
Fortunately the serotonin cell body itself is highly resilient and some axons will recover, but former MDMA users show signs of reduced serotonin axonal density in the frontal lobes and PFC. And primate studies also strongly suggest this is the case.
Can you guess where these missing axons go?
Back to the relay station - the hypothalamus.
In fact some studies suggest that serotonin axons that resprout in the first few months of recovery from acute MDMA toxicity will collapse in the frontal lobes and target the HYP instead. At 18 months abstinence, the hypothalamus was seen to have twice the normal density of serotonin.
And this is presumed to be a permanent outcome.
It is notable that the serotonin nerves that do survive in the frontal lobes experience some compensatory proliferation.
Is the hypothalamus redistributing the limited supply of serotonin across the higher brain?
And are panic attacks a sign of glutamate toxicity, perhaps designed to kill and regrow hypothalamic neurons?
That is my theory, and I'm stickin' to it.
Some former MDMA users describe severe panic attacks and anxiety for YEARS.
And my experience on BL suggests that those who combine MDMA with the powerful 2a agonist LSD exhibit the greatest signs of long-term HPA dysfunction. Including panic attacks, altered thermal regulation, digestion problems, lack of appetite, and sexual dysfunction such as low libido or ejaculatory anhedonia.
You wanted to know what the cause of your problem was and whether or not taking MDMA again would be an ok idea...
You would be very unlikely to get this much information from a doctor, unless you are talking to a neurologist that has experience with MDMA users.
Yes, your ongoing panic attacks and chest pain are due to 'brain damage' to your serotonin network.
The connection between your gut and your brain has a powerful impact on both emotions and heart-rate.
And serotonin is known to inhibit dopamine and normal neuron activity - so hyperinnervation of the hypothalamus could alone cause such severe problems.
Taking klonopin may protect hypothalamic neurons in a limited short-term fashion, but long-term use (even if only taken weekly) could spell a much higher level of toxic glutamate. And make for more powerful panic attacks and chest pains.
I HIGHLY recommend you abandon the klonopin for at least a year.
There is no other way to rule it out as a cause, although I am certain that the real cause is the collapse of higher serotonin axons from heavy MDMA use. The kpins are an ongoing contributor to the problem.
If your use is more substantial than once per week, it is VERY important that you SLOWLY taper off of them.
Abrupt discontinuation of a benzo can be very dangerous, even lethal.
Seizure are just one concern; brain damage and 'years' of no emotion is another.
Make sure you involve your doctor if you need to taper, but don't allow them to talk you out of it.
As long as you are still having panic attacks and chest pain, the klonopin is suspect.
I imagine you have worse panic attacks the day after taking them...
Should you take MDMA?
The best answer is NO.
Based on your description and that of MANY others on BL, even years of abstinence will not prevent a very uncomfortable and possibly terrible experience. I have read accounts of four years of abstinence not fixing the problem, and the user experiencing NO euphoria while suffering chest pain and tachycardia/cold sweats for HOURS.
Doesn't sound like fun does it?
If you insist on trying, I highly recommend taking Piracetam beforehand.
It is widely used by MDMA users on BL that experience 'loss of magic'.
They often describe piracetam as a miracle, restoring much of the original experience.
It preferentially increases both serotonin and dopamine into the PFC - probably redistributing it from the hypothalamus!
During my own recovery from Serotonin Syndrome, I have found piracetam to be the most incredible supplement even in TINY doses.
The effect it has on me is beyond description - a cognitive enhancer that is not draining like a stimulant.
It restores emotions and increases digestion considerably.
And if I were to EVER try and roll again, there is NO doubt that Piracetam would be a pre and post load.
But I should mention that it needs to be taken at least 4 hours prior to MDMA, as it must take effect on the PFC first.
It taken at the same time it will be a wasted dose.
Some people, like Bsiren, claim it must be taken the night before AND several hours prior to MDMA.
I agree with this advice based on the fact that it always effected me more the second day than the first - a sign to me that it must permeate the entire length of the GI.
The only way you should even consider rolling again is with Piracetam.
No 5-HTP or tryptophan supplements!
Any other serotonin increasing agent is a MAJOR risk for you.
You are already tempting fate on this one.
At best you may experience an improvement in emotions that you haven't felt in years.
But it will not last past the experience and you may well experience a very hard crash.
You should expect a very bad comedown.
And even if the experience is decent, you have to remember that your higher brain is simply incapable of exerting the same effect upon the HPA now.
And if the experience is negative, it can be powerfully negative.
You think you have panic and chest pain now?
What do you expect from increasing serotonin content in the hypothalamus even more?
Now you see why piracetam is so crucial.
And so is exercise.
Working out releases BDNF, a serotonin nerve growth factor.
This will also increase axonal density in the frontal lobes - but not permanently.
Only permanent exercise routines can have a lasting impact.
But I highly recommend exercising for several days before and after any drug experience.
Consider yourself lucky that opiates work ok for you.
I have had very bad reactions to Tramadol in the last year and one BL member (Altered Perception) describes tachycardia and fevers from opiates, alcohol, and cannabis TEN YEARS after a near-death experience on MDMA!
What I really recommend is that you focus on living as healthy as possible, eating right and exercising DAILY for a year.
And drop the kpins for good.
This should improve your panic attacks and chest pain significantly, and if it does THEN you can consider taking MDMA again.
But not until then.
Be smart.
Final advice - if you do it with my exercise/piracetam regimen...
You should also use a TRIAL dose that is VERY small.
Like a fourth of a pill just to see what happens. That way if you react poorly you haven't doomed yourself to hell.
And CONTROL YOUR BODY TEMPERATURE.
Even if you don't feel a fever happening, force yourself to roll in a cool environment with few clothes on.
Having a lower core temperature directly prevents serotonin toxicity!
I hope all of this helps.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
And come back to let us know what you decide, and how you turn out.
FBC
First, Renz is right - benzos are BAD for long-term use.
There is no way around this truth.
They are remarkably safe for short-term use, even when acute reactions to other drugs (like MDMA, meth, crack) are suspected. They increase GABA in the brain which directly opposes the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate.
But the brain attempts to maintain homeostasis by slowly increasing glutamate.
When the benzo is withdrawn or a dose is missed, glutamate levels can SOAR.
Many people have minor freakouts after short-term use, and some long-term users have such severe panic attacks that they feel like they are having HEART ATTACKS. And sometimes they do.
The overuse of benzos became an obvious problem, with ER visits among benzo users exceeding those of ALL illegal drugs in 2008!
In The Dark Side forum you can find threads by long-term benzo users that make recovery from other drugs look like a CAKE WALK.
I have read literature and anecdotal reports on the recovery process from many different drugs, and let me tell you that NOTHING scares me as much as benzos or cocaine. Even MDMA, heroin, and meth users with severe problems display a trend towards recovery of normal function within 1-3 years.
But cocaine (crack?) users redose SO often that they obliterate their central reward pathways and they demonstrate a loss of executive function exceeding that of other drugs up to FIVE YEARS. And that is just how long they are followed for, not when they improve.
Anecdotes on benzo users describe an utter lack of emotion.
For 3-5 years in extreme cases.
We are talking a hollow, empty, NON-HUMAN existence.
They talk about not even having the emotion to kill themselves.
Again - it is the length of time that truly sets these two drugs apart from the rest.
Long-term sufferers can exist with many drugs, of course.
Marijuana for example can set off a life-long bout with schizophrenia.
But the point is that benzos have solid documentation that shows a profound risk to long-term users.
What is going on?
High levels of glutamate must be removed from neurons or it literally excites them to death!
Benzos can cause such major increases in glutamate that certain brain regions fall victim to a toxic cascade known as apoptosis.
One such area of the brain is the hypothalamus, which is vulnerable to glutamate toxicity.
This is one reason that MSG, or mono-sodium glutamate, is NOT recommended as a meat tenderizer.
Sure, it does a great job of softening meat cells...
Glutamate toxicity is part of the toxicity of MDMA and it is even suspected as a possible cause of schizophrenia.
But a very important finding from rat studies is that hypothalamic neurons can regenerate after injury.
This is not a known site of adult neurogenesis, but it was shown that after glutamate toxicity stem cell proliferation was seen in this region. How these new cells are integrated into existing circuits, or if they are, could not be determined. Nonetheless it is an exciting example of possible neurogenesis outside of known regions.
Panic attacks and glutamate go hand in hand.
Especially when chest pain occurs - this is a sign of hypothalamic injury.
The HYP controls many autonomic functions such as digestion, body temperature, and heart-rate.
It also serves as the command center for the entire endocrine and adrenal system.
Known as the HPA, or hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, this structure serves as the connection between our body, thoughts, and emotions. The HPA is the target of all anti-depressants, especially SSRIs (and even ECT).
Altered HPA function is seen with severe depression, psychotic disorders, and during recovery from drug addiction.
Or following a toxic dose.
The hypothalamus sits at the front of the brainstem just before the cortex.
Serotonin nerves extending from the raphe nuclei into the frontal lobes travel through the hypothalamus.
Serotonin is the 'brain-gut' circuitry and it primarily is found in the intestines.
But in the brain, serotonin makes up the most dense neurotransmitter system and it interacts with dopamine and diverse brain functions in ways that escape our understanding. But it is known that serotonin activity in the highest brain regions, such as the prefrontal cortex just behind the forehead, causes significant improvements in mood and HPA axis function. Potentially through targeting dopamine into specific brain circuits, including one that connects to the nucleus acumbens in the limbic system (reward circuitry).
Of course these serotonin nerves travel through the hypothalamus and thus derive their impact upon the pituitary, the master endocrine gland, and the adrenal glands that sit atop your kidneys. And both MDMA and LSD rely on serotonin for their magical effects.
LSD is an agonist, or activator, of 5HT (5,hydroxytryptamine or serotonin) 2A receptors in the PFC.
And MDMA is a system-wide serotonin releasing agent that also targets the PFC.
The serotonin nerves in the prefrontal region are the furthest from their point of origin in the brainstem.
It is here that they are thinnest and most fiber-like.
Not only does this make them more vulnerable to toxicity but they are the LAST to recover during drug abstinence.
And serotonin releasers like MDMA are indeed 'toxic' to higher cortical axons.
Fortunately the serotonin cell body itself is highly resilient and some axons will recover, but former MDMA users show signs of reduced serotonin axonal density in the frontal lobes and PFC. And primate studies also strongly suggest this is the case.
Can you guess where these missing axons go?
Back to the relay station - the hypothalamus.
In fact some studies suggest that serotonin axons that resprout in the first few months of recovery from acute MDMA toxicity will collapse in the frontal lobes and target the HYP instead. At 18 months abstinence, the hypothalamus was seen to have twice the normal density of serotonin.
And this is presumed to be a permanent outcome.
It is notable that the serotonin nerves that do survive in the frontal lobes experience some compensatory proliferation.
Is the hypothalamus redistributing the limited supply of serotonin across the higher brain?
And are panic attacks a sign of glutamate toxicity, perhaps designed to kill and regrow hypothalamic neurons?
That is my theory, and I'm stickin' to it.
Some former MDMA users describe severe panic attacks and anxiety for YEARS.
And my experience on BL suggests that those who combine MDMA with the powerful 2a agonist LSD exhibit the greatest signs of long-term HPA dysfunction. Including panic attacks, altered thermal regulation, digestion problems, lack of appetite, and sexual dysfunction such as low libido or ejaculatory anhedonia.
You wanted to know what the cause of your problem was and whether or not taking MDMA again would be an ok idea...
You would be very unlikely to get this much information from a doctor, unless you are talking to a neurologist that has experience with MDMA users.
Yes, your ongoing panic attacks and chest pain are due to 'brain damage' to your serotonin network.
The connection between your gut and your brain has a powerful impact on both emotions and heart-rate.
And serotonin is known to inhibit dopamine and normal neuron activity - so hyperinnervation of the hypothalamus could alone cause such severe problems.
Taking klonopin may protect hypothalamic neurons in a limited short-term fashion, but long-term use (even if only taken weekly) could spell a much higher level of toxic glutamate. And make for more powerful panic attacks and chest pains.
I HIGHLY recommend you abandon the klonopin for at least a year.
There is no other way to rule it out as a cause, although I am certain that the real cause is the collapse of higher serotonin axons from heavy MDMA use. The kpins are an ongoing contributor to the problem.
If your use is more substantial than once per week, it is VERY important that you SLOWLY taper off of them.
Abrupt discontinuation of a benzo can be very dangerous, even lethal.
Seizure are just one concern; brain damage and 'years' of no emotion is another.
Make sure you involve your doctor if you need to taper, but don't allow them to talk you out of it.
As long as you are still having panic attacks and chest pain, the klonopin is suspect.
I imagine you have worse panic attacks the day after taking them...
Should you take MDMA?
The best answer is NO.
Based on your description and that of MANY others on BL, even years of abstinence will not prevent a very uncomfortable and possibly terrible experience. I have read accounts of four years of abstinence not fixing the problem, and the user experiencing NO euphoria while suffering chest pain and tachycardia/cold sweats for HOURS.
Doesn't sound like fun does it?
If you insist on trying, I highly recommend taking Piracetam beforehand.
It is widely used by MDMA users on BL that experience 'loss of magic'.
They often describe piracetam as a miracle, restoring much of the original experience.
It preferentially increases both serotonin and dopamine into the PFC - probably redistributing it from the hypothalamus!
During my own recovery from Serotonin Syndrome, I have found piracetam to be the most incredible supplement even in TINY doses.
The effect it has on me is beyond description - a cognitive enhancer that is not draining like a stimulant.
It restores emotions and increases digestion considerably.
And if I were to EVER try and roll again, there is NO doubt that Piracetam would be a pre and post load.
But I should mention that it needs to be taken at least 4 hours prior to MDMA, as it must take effect on the PFC first.
It taken at the same time it will be a wasted dose.
Some people, like Bsiren, claim it must be taken the night before AND several hours prior to MDMA.
I agree with this advice based on the fact that it always effected me more the second day than the first - a sign to me that it must permeate the entire length of the GI.
The only way you should even consider rolling again is with Piracetam.
No 5-HTP or tryptophan supplements!
Any other serotonin increasing agent is a MAJOR risk for you.
You are already tempting fate on this one.
At best you may experience an improvement in emotions that you haven't felt in years.
But it will not last past the experience and you may well experience a very hard crash.
You should expect a very bad comedown.
And even if the experience is decent, you have to remember that your higher brain is simply incapable of exerting the same effect upon the HPA now.
And if the experience is negative, it can be powerfully negative.
You think you have panic and chest pain now?
What do you expect from increasing serotonin content in the hypothalamus even more?
Now you see why piracetam is so crucial.
And so is exercise.
Working out releases BDNF, a serotonin nerve growth factor.
This will also increase axonal density in the frontal lobes - but not permanently.
Only permanent exercise routines can have a lasting impact.
But I highly recommend exercising for several days before and after any drug experience.
Consider yourself lucky that opiates work ok for you.
I have had very bad reactions to Tramadol in the last year and one BL member (Altered Perception) describes tachycardia and fevers from opiates, alcohol, and cannabis TEN YEARS after a near-death experience on MDMA!
What I really recommend is that you focus on living as healthy as possible, eating right and exercising DAILY for a year.
And drop the kpins for good.
This should improve your panic attacks and chest pain significantly, and if it does THEN you can consider taking MDMA again.
But not until then.
Be smart.
Final advice - if you do it with my exercise/piracetam regimen...
You should also use a TRIAL dose that is VERY small.
Like a fourth of a pill just to see what happens. That way if you react poorly you haven't doomed yourself to hell.
And CONTROL YOUR BODY TEMPERATURE.
Even if you don't feel a fever happening, force yourself to roll in a cool environment with few clothes on.
Having a lower core temperature directly prevents serotonin toxicity!
I hope all of this helps.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
And come back to let us know what you decide, and how you turn out.
FBC
Renz Envy
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,338
Very good read above.
However there are a few places where I must say your views are a bit pessimistic.
Chest pains during panic attacks are caused by hyperventilation. The dizziness as well. During a panic attack one's breathing is sped up and oxygen intake becomes too much. This usually leads to dizziness and trouble walking, which exacerbates the effects of the panic disorder. Chest pain is often due to bruising of the interior chest walls.
In my opinion, so long as the person takes a break off of GABA drugs, the anxiety and panic attacks should fade with time. The key here is that panic disorder is often a problem BEFORE having ever consumed the drugs. The drugs merely brought out the effect.
Neurologically speaking, you may be correct, however the brain is very resilient and doing such high level permanent damage seems a bit harsh so to speak. Anhedonia is a condition in which chronic methamphetamine smokers accumulate after years of use.
"Anhedonia" is the medical term for "burnt out junkie"
Like people that smoke marijuana and feel "depersonalized" I wish you luck in overcoming your problems. I feel that many of the issues concerning post-MDMA use are purely anxious thinking. Thousands have used MDMA with no problems, and thousands more will follow. Try and focus on other aspects of life.
However there are a few places where I must say your views are a bit pessimistic.
Chest pains during panic attacks are caused by hyperventilation. The dizziness as well. During a panic attack one's breathing is sped up and oxygen intake becomes too much. This usually leads to dizziness and trouble walking, which exacerbates the effects of the panic disorder. Chest pain is often due to bruising of the interior chest walls.
In my opinion, so long as the person takes a break off of GABA drugs, the anxiety and panic attacks should fade with time. The key here is that panic disorder is often a problem BEFORE having ever consumed the drugs. The drugs merely brought out the effect.
Neurologically speaking, you may be correct, however the brain is very resilient and doing such high level permanent damage seems a bit harsh so to speak. Anhedonia is a condition in which chronic methamphetamine smokers accumulate after years of use.
"Anhedonia" is the medical term for "burnt out junkie"
Like people that smoke marijuana and feel "depersonalized" I wish you luck in overcoming your problems. I feel that many of the issues concerning post-MDMA use are purely anxious thinking. Thousands have used MDMA with no problems, and thousands more will follow. Try and focus on other aspects of life.
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
Interesting.
I would argue that chest pains can precede heavy breathing - especially when the hypothalamus and glutamate are concerned.
I had a boss once who suddenly had 'heart-attack' chest pain. Only after this scared the SHIT out of him did he hyper-ventilate.
Which did make it worse!
And yes, he was a regular xanax user - constantly popping them at work not getting shit done.
Those were the days...
He ended up going to the ER of course, certain of a heart-attack.
Which did not occur.
But I have read many accounts of benzo induced chest pain and the chest pain is normally a result of stress and anxiety.
But not hyper-ventilating, that comes after.
As it did for me, the night of serotonin syndrome.
I assure you that chest pain is the FIRST symptom, and it is SO shocking that it almost knocks the breath out of you!
I felt like something was pressing on my entire chest for at least 5-10 minutes.
All of this points to the hypothalamus, not just predisposition to anxiety.
Although it could be argued that people with anxiety problems tend to have more issues with the hypothalamus...
It does become a cycle at some point in reasoning.
In terms of meth users you are right about 'anhedonia'.
It takes years of serious addiction in most people to cause real anhedonia.
But with MDMA and SSRIs it can be shockingly real and NOT require an addiction or 'junkie' status.
Believe me - anhedonia is VERY much a term that applies to casual MDMA users and patients prescribed anti-depressants.
And it is a crippling and complete anhedonia for some of them, worthy of a decade of meth or crack use that never occurred!
Serotonin inhibits dopamine and some former MDMA users are seen to have persistent dopamine depletions in the straitum at three years of abstinence!
Altered Perception is ten years down the line and feels NO euphoria from oxycontin or hydrocodone...
Yes, I know these are minority examples....not the trend.
But statements like, "Thousands have used MDMA with no problems, and thousands more will follow." completely ignores the scientific fact that serotonin inhibits dopamine in a long-term way when enough 'toxicity' occurs.
And 'toxicity' or damage to the network of nerves is NOT determined by anxious thinking.
It is physical nerve damage that leads to anxious thinking.
I will agree that a certain level of discipline is helpful, but for me and the many I have counseled, once the nerve damage is done there is NO way to avoid 'anxious thinking'. You can be a zen master for weeks in a row, but one day that dopamine inhibition will break you down and you will FREAK out.
There is no exception to this Renz.
In fact such freakouts have caused the most progress for me.
And I recommend 'rage therapy' to those who are ready to hear it.
Forcing that dopamine to flow is very intense and causes definitive and permanent changes in the way I think and feel.
Lasting adjustments.
My anhedonia is much improved as is my anxiety.
But I still have bad days.
And forcing myself to focus on life began at six months recovery, when I set down much of my research.
I am at 14 months recovery, staying positive, working out daily, succeeding at work, living my life.
Yet there is still anxiety, anhedonia, dopamine suppression, rage.
Pessimism should be rephrased as realism.
I have been around this block with too many BL members before - it is not just about attitude.
MDMA is a potent neurotoxin that damages higher brain regions.
The perception that it is somehow a 'safe' drug needs to be changed.
Here.
Now.
Good discussion.
Thanks for that.
Best of luck to you in staying off meth and avoiding the anhedonia you can only imagine.
I would argue that chest pains can precede heavy breathing - especially when the hypothalamus and glutamate are concerned.
I had a boss once who suddenly had 'heart-attack' chest pain. Only after this scared the SHIT out of him did he hyper-ventilate.
Which did make it worse!
And yes, he was a regular xanax user - constantly popping them at work not getting shit done.
Those were the days...
He ended up going to the ER of course, certain of a heart-attack.
Which did not occur.
But I have read many accounts of benzo induced chest pain and the chest pain is normally a result of stress and anxiety.
But not hyper-ventilating, that comes after.
As it did for me, the night of serotonin syndrome.
I assure you that chest pain is the FIRST symptom, and it is SO shocking that it almost knocks the breath out of you!
I felt like something was pressing on my entire chest for at least 5-10 minutes.
All of this points to the hypothalamus, not just predisposition to anxiety.
Although it could be argued that people with anxiety problems tend to have more issues with the hypothalamus...
It does become a cycle at some point in reasoning.
In terms of meth users you are right about 'anhedonia'.
It takes years of serious addiction in most people to cause real anhedonia.
But with MDMA and SSRIs it can be shockingly real and NOT require an addiction or 'junkie' status.
Believe me - anhedonia is VERY much a term that applies to casual MDMA users and patients prescribed anti-depressants.
And it is a crippling and complete anhedonia for some of them, worthy of a decade of meth or crack use that never occurred!
Serotonin inhibits dopamine and some former MDMA users are seen to have persistent dopamine depletions in the straitum at three years of abstinence!
Altered Perception is ten years down the line and feels NO euphoria from oxycontin or hydrocodone...
Yes, I know these are minority examples....not the trend.
But statements like, "Thousands have used MDMA with no problems, and thousands more will follow." completely ignores the scientific fact that serotonin inhibits dopamine in a long-term way when enough 'toxicity' occurs.
And 'toxicity' or damage to the network of nerves is NOT determined by anxious thinking.
It is physical nerve damage that leads to anxious thinking.
I will agree that a certain level of discipline is helpful, but for me and the many I have counseled, once the nerve damage is done there is NO way to avoid 'anxious thinking'. You can be a zen master for weeks in a row, but one day that dopamine inhibition will break you down and you will FREAK out.
There is no exception to this Renz.
In fact such freakouts have caused the most progress for me.
And I recommend 'rage therapy' to those who are ready to hear it.
Forcing that dopamine to flow is very intense and causes definitive and permanent changes in the way I think and feel.
Lasting adjustments.
My anhedonia is much improved as is my anxiety.
But I still have bad days.
And forcing myself to focus on life began at six months recovery, when I set down much of my research.
I am at 14 months recovery, staying positive, working out daily, succeeding at work, living my life.
Yet there is still anxiety, anhedonia, dopamine suppression, rage.
Pessimism should be rephrased as realism.
I have been around this block with too many BL members before - it is not just about attitude.
MDMA is a potent neurotoxin that damages higher brain regions.
The perception that it is somehow a 'safe' drug needs to be changed.
Here.
Now.
Good discussion.
Thanks for that.
Best of luck to you in staying off meth and avoiding the anhedonia you can only imagine.
I tend to agree with Renz, the more time goes by, the more I see my problems are related to trauama, and the less I see them as purely neurological.
I have 3 close friends who used E weekly for 1 1/2 years before stopping, all reported some rebounding anxiety and depression, but most state how there basicaly back to normal, with only a few sides. These were heavy users, 200+ pills in a short span. They all seem happier, and more "connected" to the world than I do. They also seem to have varying degrees of emotions, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from anyone.
My use on the other hand was 15 pills in 4 months, once every two weeks, 1-2 pills. During my last trip I changed completely, endured a traumatic experience and havn't been the same. I've been flat and numb ever since. Had flashbacks and relived that night a million times. The strange thing is, i was completley normal before that night, don't recall any negative consequences for my previous 7 rolls.
So where am I going with this? I went crazy panicking all day thinking that MDMA caused some kind of irreversible brain damage, which feed in a frenzy of negative feedback, stuck in a loop if you will. Panicking about panicking. I can now see this caused WAY more problems than the MDMA alone, and my neurologist and psychiatrist agree. I wish I listened to them at first, instead of 18 months later..
Surely enough, I rolled again, boom, all anxiety issues gone. Just emotionless and numb (another bad trip where I depersonalized because I rolled with two people I just met and was in a VERY uncomofrable setting), my insomnia cleared too. So this lead me to think, well if my serotonin system was damaged, causeing me all these problems, how would rolling again rid me of this? it simply broke the loop. Put me into another consciousness, broke the pattern.
Now I don't suggest you roll again, even though it has showed to be useful for post trip anxiety, but I do advise you to try smoking some weed and analyzing yourself, I luckily learn alot about my thought process while stoned. It helps me pick out whats "really" wrong.
Simply put, you might be stuck in a 5-6 year long thought-loop. Break it man, anyway you can. Don't be quick to blame MDMA, all these studies FBC is referencing are absolutely bolus doses, and very frequently. Not to mention, theres MANY other studies showing humans are more resilient to MDMA than primates, and that theres even "apparent" full recovery of SERT in cortical (highest brain regions) centres. If these "consequences" were true FBC, how the hell would people be able to keep rolling, let alone roll days in a row to go on and continue having a rolling career? Obviously somethings up, if the amount of damage your explaing truly exists in humans, theres two outcomes, one would be that MDMA would have a WAYYYYYYYY worse rep than it does, because there would be ALOT more people talking negatively about it, and two theres no fucking way in hell people would be able to roll so much, if one over indulgence would result in 60% loss of SERT. Common.
This simply isn't possible if the type of brain damage FBC is explaining is true. Remember, there's millions of people using this drug, with no apparent sides. Don't be quick to exclude real life problems, and scapegoat them, blaming the drug. I know what its like. Plus no one knows any behavioural consequences of MDMA, so FBC its kind of hard to believe your proposed method of recovery, and action (i.e. damage to certian brain regions and there effect on other neurotransmitter signaling?) when scientists can't even determine how the brain works, or how this drug effects users (behaviorally) in the long term.
I have 3 close friends who used E weekly for 1 1/2 years before stopping, all reported some rebounding anxiety and depression, but most state how there basicaly back to normal, with only a few sides. These were heavy users, 200+ pills in a short span. They all seem happier, and more "connected" to the world than I do. They also seem to have varying degrees of emotions, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from anyone.
My use on the other hand was 15 pills in 4 months, once every two weeks, 1-2 pills. During my last trip I changed completely, endured a traumatic experience and havn't been the same. I've been flat and numb ever since. Had flashbacks and relived that night a million times. The strange thing is, i was completley normal before that night, don't recall any negative consequences for my previous 7 rolls.
So where am I going with this? I went crazy panicking all day thinking that MDMA caused some kind of irreversible brain damage, which feed in a frenzy of negative feedback, stuck in a loop if you will. Panicking about panicking. I can now see this caused WAY more problems than the MDMA alone, and my neurologist and psychiatrist agree. I wish I listened to them at first, instead of 18 months later..
Surely enough, I rolled again, boom, all anxiety issues gone. Just emotionless and numb (another bad trip where I depersonalized because I rolled with two people I just met and was in a VERY uncomofrable setting), my insomnia cleared too. So this lead me to think, well if my serotonin system was damaged, causeing me all these problems, how would rolling again rid me of this? it simply broke the loop. Put me into another consciousness, broke the pattern.
Now I don't suggest you roll again, even though it has showed to be useful for post trip anxiety, but I do advise you to try smoking some weed and analyzing yourself, I luckily learn alot about my thought process while stoned. It helps me pick out whats "really" wrong.
Simply put, you might be stuck in a 5-6 year long thought-loop. Break it man, anyway you can. Don't be quick to blame MDMA, all these studies FBC is referencing are absolutely bolus doses, and very frequently. Not to mention, theres MANY other studies showing humans are more resilient to MDMA than primates, and that theres even "apparent" full recovery of SERT in cortical (highest brain regions) centres. If these "consequences" were true FBC, how the hell would people be able to keep rolling, let alone roll days in a row to go on and continue having a rolling career? Obviously somethings up, if the amount of damage your explaing truly exists in humans, theres two outcomes, one would be that MDMA would have a WAYYYYYYYY worse rep than it does, because there would be ALOT more people talking negatively about it, and two theres no fucking way in hell people would be able to roll so much, if one over indulgence would result in 60% loss of SERT. Common.
This simply isn't possible if the type of brain damage FBC is explaining is true. Remember, there's millions of people using this drug, with no apparent sides. Don't be quick to exclude real life problems, and scapegoat them, blaming the drug. I know what its like. Plus no one knows any behavioural consequences of MDMA, so FBC its kind of hard to believe your proposed method of recovery, and action (i.e. damage to certian brain regions and there effect on other neurotransmitter signaling?) when scientists can't even determine how the brain works, or how this drug effects users (behaviorally) in the long term.
Last edited:
Folley
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2011
- Messages
- 12,185
I agree 100%.
Too many people do some quick research, and find out that MDMA isnt bad for you at all!!!!!
Then they roll every week, dont notice and negative effects until their brain is melted into a puddle and they cant go a day without getting crippling depression... I for one and APPALLED by this.
MDMA is really one of the most neurotoxic drugs out there. Even more than meth, dopamine comes back very quickly, serotonin takes forever to heal.
This is the main problem with the rave community. People get the idea that they can take 10 pills every weekend and party their ass off, and get no negative effects, because they look around and see everyone else doing it. What they dont understand, is that MDMA users arnt going around talking about how rolling made them so depressed/fucked up.
No one wants to talk about that, its personal. So we are going to keep getting more and more kids with a fucked up serotonin system, unless we group together and do something about it.
Renz Envy
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,338
After doing careful research I will probably never roll again. To be honest, heavy stimulants in general scare me away now.
I used a lot of ecstasy. I have probably been through at least 5-7 grams of MDMA in my rolling period. I cannot say my anxiety is any worse after use. Actually, MDMA helped overcome social issues with me. I suspect that is because I practiced harm reduction, never redosed (Only once at a festival), drank a protein shake with a banana after and got plenty of sleep.
There are studies that show methamphetamine's neurotoxicity is much, much worse with lack of sleep and food. This may be common knowledge, but it should be put into consideration when being compared with MDMA. This is definitely something to consider when rolling next.
I merely feel your view point is pessimistic, because I find that a lot of anxiety is more sprouted to a lifestyle developed after drug use. I feel that even a chronic post-MDMA user can still live a healthy, recreational, sober life and never look back on the past. It's about living in the moment. The drug use is over, the deed is done, serotonin is rewired; I want depressed/anxious post users to feel the same way I do in not dwelling on it.
I feel happier than I did before ever touching ecstasy. The memories I have are enough. I look back on the person I was before using ecstasy, and the lack of those wonderful experiences made me an emptier person.
In the end, I do not disagree with you, but I feel as though pushing forward beliefs of "I messed up by taking that brain poison" only reinforces these individual's anxiety. In other words, although chemistry influences them, thoughts and beliefs are more powerful than even the worst deficiencies.
I used a lot of ecstasy. I have probably been through at least 5-7 grams of MDMA in my rolling period. I cannot say my anxiety is any worse after use. Actually, MDMA helped overcome social issues with me. I suspect that is because I practiced harm reduction, never redosed (Only once at a festival), drank a protein shake with a banana after and got plenty of sleep.
There are studies that show methamphetamine's neurotoxicity is much, much worse with lack of sleep and food. This may be common knowledge, but it should be put into consideration when being compared with MDMA. This is definitely something to consider when rolling next.
I merely feel your view point is pessimistic, because I find that a lot of anxiety is more sprouted to a lifestyle developed after drug use. I feel that even a chronic post-MDMA user can still live a healthy, recreational, sober life and never look back on the past. It's about living in the moment. The drug use is over, the deed is done, serotonin is rewired; I want depressed/anxious post users to feel the same way I do in not dwelling on it.
I feel happier than I did before ever touching ecstasy. The memories I have are enough. I look back on the person I was before using ecstasy, and the lack of those wonderful experiences made me an emptier person.
In the end, I do not disagree with you, but I feel as though pushing forward beliefs of "I messed up by taking that brain poison" only reinforces these individual's anxiety. In other words, although chemistry influences them, thoughts and beliefs are more powerful than even the worst deficiencies.
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First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
Wow, great ongoing thread here.
I'm very pleased to see you posting again Somedud.
Honestly it gives me hope.
I'm so goddamn proud of you.
I would stick around longer, but my beautiful wife is waiting in a bathtub for me.
Perhaps later I will make time for this thread.
I'm very pleased to see you posting again Somedud.
Honestly it gives me hope.
I'm so goddamn proud of you.
I would stick around longer, but my beautiful wife is waiting in a bathtub for me.
Perhaps later I will make time for this thread.
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
Renz - you are correct about METH users experiencing greater deficits than typical MDMA users.
That is the real finding of research...
Meth is highly HIGHLY addictive and months/years of use taxes the resilient dopamine system to its limits.
Just as with MDMA, redosing is the primary cause of damage - and few drugs are redosed and abused as much as METH.
And you have recent experience with this!
Meth is more destructive because it is more addictive.
But dose for dose, MDMA is FAR more neurotoxic.
If meth could be used in reliably controlled doses, absent lack of sleep and food, it would likely produce little neurotoxicity.
But that is simply against reality, not the way it really works.
Its like asking a crackhead to take just one hit.
I am familiar with MDMA users like yourself who just don't get it.
They refer to their pattern of use and seeming lack of suffering.
They draw conclusions based on their own personal experience and that of their peers (don't we all).
And they somehow conclude that people like myself, somedud, altered perception, bben, catinthehat4, and now jason1981 - that we are all creating the problem in ourselves.
Considering that high or repeated doses causes reliable toxicity in primates, why is it so hard to believe that a minority of human users will experience crippling anxiety and depression that exists outside of their control?
What does it do for you, to believe that we are choosing to suffer?
That is the question I have asked time and again on this forum, especially earlier in my own recovery.
I cannot STAND people who point to every single conclusion other than nerve damage from a neurotoxin.
It is choosing to ignore the most OBVIOUS answer!
Once again, I will concede that personal attitude, environment, and discipline do play a role.
But the type of frontal lobe axonal destruction that is probably occurring must be recognized as the PRIMARY cause.
Or else BL is just full of drug-using college kids who think they are invincible.
Typical...
BDNF is not just released during exercise.
It is an activity-related protein.
That means an active lifestyle, both physical and mental, causes a release of this serotonin sprouting serum.
And serotonin releasers like MDMA are arguably taking advantage of years of activity-related BDNF.
The serotonin in your higher brain represents the wiring that occurred when your brain was developing as a fetus and throughout childhood.
So when you begin using MDMA in your teens and early twenties, you have all that stored up serotonin potential.
Potential that is simply taken for granted in the young. They just assume that the brain is designed to experience drugs.
When this is clearly not the case.
Yes, it is resilient and can withstand a lot of abuse.
But it is designed to experience life. Not get high for years in a row.
If using serotonin releasers is taking advantage of years of BDNF, then the destruction of serotonin axons and terminals might cause the brain to enter a heightened state of activity. Make sense?
In an attempt to restore itself, the brain causes a state of hyper-vigilance, anxiety...psychosis.
Why should we assume that the brain is making a mistake?
What gives us the ability to say - "Calm down. You are making it worse."
Should we not conclude that the brain is doing what it is supposed to?
This is one argument against treatment of schizophrenia, a psychotic disorder that shares many symptoms with MDMA toxicity.
It is known that very early intervention in schizophrenia is the ONLY way to 'cure' the disorder.
Anti-psychotics blockade dopamine receptors, shutting off the cascade of events that occurs.
And in a minority of sufferers, this causes a lasting remission of symptoms.
But in general only about 20% of schizophrenics achieve life-long remission, possibly due to failure of early detection.
ECT, when administered in the first year, causes an 80% success rate in life-long remission.
Although about a third of patients suffer ongoing memory problems.
It is agreed to be a disease without cure by most doctors, which is a sad state of affairs for a disorder that effects a whopping 1% of our population!
Yet some scientists point to older data that suggests about 60% of patients will achieve remission ON THEIR OWN.
What?
How could that be?
Powerful anti-psychotic drugs.
It may well be that treating schizophrenia with dopamine blockers SHUTS OFF a critical process in the brain.
This disorder has a mild genetic component - about 10% higher risk for those with immediate family members suffering from it.
Some scientists have suggested that ALL humans carry the genetic potential for this disorder within the wiring of the brain.
In our genetic code there exists several 'retro-viruses' that were integrated into the nervous systems of our ancestors - not just primates but for billions of years. They are a critical part of our DNA, too.
But many of these are entirely dormant - simply another part of the code.
Activation of this viral DNA is a newly suspected cause of schizophrenia.
And even newer data shows that treatment with anti-psychotic drugs increases the activation of several 'HERVS'.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0030054
Although the most common class of HERVs observed in schizophrenia is not in this group, this data suggests that the very drugs that BLOCK psychosis make the progression of the disease WORSE.
And this is on top of older data that shows a trend towards remission without modern medicine.
Doctors are beginning to suspect that preventing the psychosis itself contributes to the 'life-long' nature of the disease.
I.E. the brain knows what it is doing.
Anxiety and psychotic behavior may be a critical component to recovery.
And the belief that people should just 'calm down' or that they are just making it worse is a dangerous assumption.
We are only beginning to understand the brain - yet the presence of so much research and a technical language to accompany it leaves the FALSE impression that we really get it. That science is somehow in command.
Commence laughter.
To digitally represent every neuron in ONE human brain would require a storage capacity that exceeds the ENTIRE digital content of the world.
Science is only beginning to understand.
The mind is a deep ocean, a new frontier.
And understanding it is a long-term goal, very long.
It should be conceded that even if the brain 'knows what it is doing' - that damage is still occurring.
Neurons die. Ventricles enlarge. Glial cells activate and rewire.
Yet our understanding is so basic that to interfere in this process may only produce more 'brain damage'.
This is often the case with Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors.
HPA axis dysfunction is WORSE in half of patients upon withdrawal!
There is plenty of clinical evidence, backed by pages of impressive technical terms, that shows a deficiency in serotonin transmission is a central cause of depression. And we have spent billions of dollars on engineering molecules that shove serotonin into the higher brain.
And they WORK - marvelously.
Until withdrawn.
So we have medications that have powerful impacts upon brain function in people with severe depression or psychosis.
Yet both SSRIs and anti-psychotics are linked to worse-outcomes when compared to those not treated with medications.
Yes - some people do indeed benefit from the changes these drugs make.
But only 20% of schizophrenics will 'recover' with medical intervention and only 30% of severely depressed patients will maintain results after withdrawal.
All that is known about these drugs is that taking them causes a temporary change in brain function and a visible improvement in patient behavior.
But they do NOT substitute for the re-wiring that the brain itself is capable of.
Perhaps one day we will learn to aid the brain in its own recovery process.
That is why I recommend exercise so often.
With ALL types of brain injury, from stroke to gunshots to TBI - physical therapy is given daily for HOURS in a row.
It is forced upon the patient, because there is solid data showing that physical activity causes a better long-term prognosis.
The body serves to heal the mind.
So my opinion is clear.
Anxiety is meant to happen.
It serves a function - one dismissed too easily by doctors and drug-users alike.
Even recovered MDMA users that have been there before often make statements like Somedud.
And that is perhaps the greatest indication of hope.
Somehow the brain is capable of telling itself - "I was just making it worse on myself."
Its not brain damage at all.
I can't tell you how many posts I have read from former suffers that made such statements!
In the end we are gifted with a unique ability to remain positive, to deny the negative.
To fool ourselves for our own benefit.
What a miracle the brain is.
Only after a long period of intense suffering and anxiety can Somedud make such statements.
I assure you, he was not capable of this in recent months. For a year and a half he has bravely endured a constantly changing brain structure.
And now, before it is even finished, he is concluding that it wasn't as bad as he originally thought!
He points to his friends that showed no psychosis, to the trend of MDMA users around the world being repeated dosers without major consequence.
He even omits a critical fact from his own history of use.
You have done this time and again, my friend.
I remember an email you sent long ago in which you admitted a period of heavy use more than a year prior to the pills you now count.
I have repeatedly reminded you of this fact, yet you still focus on the limited doses you took just prior to your meltdown.
That is positive thinking.
And my pointing it out is not meant disrespectfully.
I am very pleased to see you making such statements.
I have been very concerned for you lately, in part because you did not respond to my last message.
Let me know if you reconsider about the voice chat.
I can't help but oppose some of your conclusions, but I have to admit they are good signs for you.
Here is another...
Research CLEARLY shows mild cognitive deficits among heavier users, even after years of abstinence.
That invalidates some of your certainty about the lack of neurotoxicity among most users.
The scientific data suggests that a measure of toxicity is occurring to ALL users.
The 'sides' are more than apparent to researchers.
Yet they are tolerable and do not usually involve psychosis in most users.
But 'toxicity' still occurs.
And with enough doses MOST humans would fall victim to 'brain damage'.
One day we will have more longitudinal data on MDMA users.
And I strongly suspect that modest cognitive and emotional deficits will be teased out, and perhaps an increased risk of Alzheimer's or other forms of age-related cognitive decline. We shall see...
Until then I continue my tirade against MDMA and its glorified status on this worldwide stage.
And I will support the notion that recovery occurs on a protracted schedule.
Good luck to the OP, Somedud, Renz, Folley....and all my readers.
FBC
That is the real finding of research...
Meth is highly HIGHLY addictive and months/years of use taxes the resilient dopamine system to its limits.
Just as with MDMA, redosing is the primary cause of damage - and few drugs are redosed and abused as much as METH.
And you have recent experience with this!
Meth is more destructive because it is more addictive.
But dose for dose, MDMA is FAR more neurotoxic.
If meth could be used in reliably controlled doses, absent lack of sleep and food, it would likely produce little neurotoxicity.
But that is simply against reality, not the way it really works.
Its like asking a crackhead to take just one hit.
I am familiar with MDMA users like yourself who just don't get it.
They refer to their pattern of use and seeming lack of suffering.
They draw conclusions based on their own personal experience and that of their peers (don't we all).
And they somehow conclude that people like myself, somedud, altered perception, bben, catinthehat4, and now jason1981 - that we are all creating the problem in ourselves.
Considering that high or repeated doses causes reliable toxicity in primates, why is it so hard to believe that a minority of human users will experience crippling anxiety and depression that exists outside of their control?
What does it do for you, to believe that we are choosing to suffer?
That is the question I have asked time and again on this forum, especially earlier in my own recovery.
I cannot STAND people who point to every single conclusion other than nerve damage from a neurotoxin.
It is choosing to ignore the most OBVIOUS answer!
Once again, I will concede that personal attitude, environment, and discipline do play a role.
But the type of frontal lobe axonal destruction that is probably occurring must be recognized as the PRIMARY cause.
Or else BL is just full of drug-using college kids who think they are invincible.
Typical...
BDNF is not just released during exercise.
It is an activity-related protein.
That means an active lifestyle, both physical and mental, causes a release of this serotonin sprouting serum.
And serotonin releasers like MDMA are arguably taking advantage of years of activity-related BDNF.
The serotonin in your higher brain represents the wiring that occurred when your brain was developing as a fetus and throughout childhood.
So when you begin using MDMA in your teens and early twenties, you have all that stored up serotonin potential.
Potential that is simply taken for granted in the young. They just assume that the brain is designed to experience drugs.
When this is clearly not the case.
Yes, it is resilient and can withstand a lot of abuse.
But it is designed to experience life. Not get high for years in a row.
If using serotonin releasers is taking advantage of years of BDNF, then the destruction of serotonin axons and terminals might cause the brain to enter a heightened state of activity. Make sense?
In an attempt to restore itself, the brain causes a state of hyper-vigilance, anxiety...psychosis.
Why should we assume that the brain is making a mistake?
What gives us the ability to say - "Calm down. You are making it worse."
Should we not conclude that the brain is doing what it is supposed to?
This is one argument against treatment of schizophrenia, a psychotic disorder that shares many symptoms with MDMA toxicity.
It is known that very early intervention in schizophrenia is the ONLY way to 'cure' the disorder.
Anti-psychotics blockade dopamine receptors, shutting off the cascade of events that occurs.
And in a minority of sufferers, this causes a lasting remission of symptoms.
But in general only about 20% of schizophrenics achieve life-long remission, possibly due to failure of early detection.
ECT, when administered in the first year, causes an 80% success rate in life-long remission.
Although about a third of patients suffer ongoing memory problems.
It is agreed to be a disease without cure by most doctors, which is a sad state of affairs for a disorder that effects a whopping 1% of our population!
Yet some scientists point to older data that suggests about 60% of patients will achieve remission ON THEIR OWN.
What?
How could that be?
Powerful anti-psychotic drugs.
It may well be that treating schizophrenia with dopamine blockers SHUTS OFF a critical process in the brain.
This disorder has a mild genetic component - about 10% higher risk for those with immediate family members suffering from it.
Some scientists have suggested that ALL humans carry the genetic potential for this disorder within the wiring of the brain.
In our genetic code there exists several 'retro-viruses' that were integrated into the nervous systems of our ancestors - not just primates but for billions of years. They are a critical part of our DNA, too.
But many of these are entirely dormant - simply another part of the code.
Activation of this viral DNA is a newly suspected cause of schizophrenia.
And even newer data shows that treatment with anti-psychotic drugs increases the activation of several 'HERVS'.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0030054
Although the most common class of HERVs observed in schizophrenia is not in this group, this data suggests that the very drugs that BLOCK psychosis make the progression of the disease WORSE.
And this is on top of older data that shows a trend towards remission without modern medicine.
Doctors are beginning to suspect that preventing the psychosis itself contributes to the 'life-long' nature of the disease.
I.E. the brain knows what it is doing.
Anxiety and psychotic behavior may be a critical component to recovery.
And the belief that people should just 'calm down' or that they are just making it worse is a dangerous assumption.
We are only beginning to understand the brain - yet the presence of so much research and a technical language to accompany it leaves the FALSE impression that we really get it. That science is somehow in command.
Commence laughter.
To digitally represent every neuron in ONE human brain would require a storage capacity that exceeds the ENTIRE digital content of the world.
Science is only beginning to understand.
The mind is a deep ocean, a new frontier.
And understanding it is a long-term goal, very long.
It should be conceded that even if the brain 'knows what it is doing' - that damage is still occurring.
Neurons die. Ventricles enlarge. Glial cells activate and rewire.
Yet our understanding is so basic that to interfere in this process may only produce more 'brain damage'.
This is often the case with Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors.
HPA axis dysfunction is WORSE in half of patients upon withdrawal!
There is plenty of clinical evidence, backed by pages of impressive technical terms, that shows a deficiency in serotonin transmission is a central cause of depression. And we have spent billions of dollars on engineering molecules that shove serotonin into the higher brain.
And they WORK - marvelously.
Until withdrawn.
So we have medications that have powerful impacts upon brain function in people with severe depression or psychosis.
Yet both SSRIs and anti-psychotics are linked to worse-outcomes when compared to those not treated with medications.
Yes - some people do indeed benefit from the changes these drugs make.
But only 20% of schizophrenics will 'recover' with medical intervention and only 30% of severely depressed patients will maintain results after withdrawal.
All that is known about these drugs is that taking them causes a temporary change in brain function and a visible improvement in patient behavior.
But they do NOT substitute for the re-wiring that the brain itself is capable of.
Perhaps one day we will learn to aid the brain in its own recovery process.
That is why I recommend exercise so often.
With ALL types of brain injury, from stroke to gunshots to TBI - physical therapy is given daily for HOURS in a row.
It is forced upon the patient, because there is solid data showing that physical activity causes a better long-term prognosis.
The body serves to heal the mind.
So my opinion is clear.
Anxiety is meant to happen.
It serves a function - one dismissed too easily by doctors and drug-users alike.
Even recovered MDMA users that have been there before often make statements like Somedud.
And that is perhaps the greatest indication of hope.
Somehow the brain is capable of telling itself - "I was just making it worse on myself."
Its not brain damage at all.
I can't tell you how many posts I have read from former suffers that made such statements!
In the end we are gifted with a unique ability to remain positive, to deny the negative.
To fool ourselves for our own benefit.
What a miracle the brain is.
Only after a long period of intense suffering and anxiety can Somedud make such statements.
I assure you, he was not capable of this in recent months. For a year and a half he has bravely endured a constantly changing brain structure.
And now, before it is even finished, he is concluding that it wasn't as bad as he originally thought!
He points to his friends that showed no psychosis, to the trend of MDMA users around the world being repeated dosers without major consequence.
He even omits a critical fact from his own history of use.
You have done this time and again, my friend.
I remember an email you sent long ago in which you admitted a period of heavy use more than a year prior to the pills you now count.
I have repeatedly reminded you of this fact, yet you still focus on the limited doses you took just prior to your meltdown.
That is positive thinking.
And my pointing it out is not meant disrespectfully.
I am very pleased to see you making such statements.
I have been very concerned for you lately, in part because you did not respond to my last message.
Let me know if you reconsider about the voice chat.
I can't help but oppose some of your conclusions, but I have to admit they are good signs for you.
Here is another...
Research CLEARLY shows mild cognitive deficits among heavier users, even after years of abstinence.
That invalidates some of your certainty about the lack of neurotoxicity among most users.
The scientific data suggests that a measure of toxicity is occurring to ALL users.
The 'sides' are more than apparent to researchers.
Yet they are tolerable and do not usually involve psychosis in most users.
But 'toxicity' still occurs.
And with enough doses MOST humans would fall victim to 'brain damage'.
One day we will have more longitudinal data on MDMA users.
And I strongly suspect that modest cognitive and emotional deficits will be teased out, and perhaps an increased risk of Alzheimer's or other forms of age-related cognitive decline. We shall see...
Until then I continue my tirade against MDMA and its glorified status on this worldwide stage.
And I will support the notion that recovery occurs on a protracted schedule.
Good luck to the OP, Somedud, Renz, Folley....and all my readers.
FBC
Very well put.
But this is where I tend to disagree, with my particular case. I shall explain why.
The LAST night before I rolled (the roll that really "changed me") I was perfectly normal, don't recall any mishaps or strange sensations thoughts or actions.
Then during my LAST roll, where I took only two pills, that might have very well not even been MDMA (low quality, cheap pressed pills, 3 for $10), I endured a really tramautic experience, and my roll went from feeling good and comfy, to the WORST panic attack of my life, and I lost control of my mind for a good 4-5 hours.
The next day, and months preceeding this day, I was having flashbacks, reliving that experience day in day out all day, I was even avoiding places, and even fucking objects that reminded me of that night. I had triggers everywhere, I stopped going to the upper floor of my house because thats where I went after I witnessed that experience.
Now, for the next 6 months, insane insomnia, i mean incredible. It would take either 4 sleeping pills or 2 mg of klonopin to put me out for 4+ hours. I was hypervigilant, I couldn't even make eye contact with people, and I was starteled and frustrated easily. Not to mention gut-wrenching panick attacks all day with constant anxiety.
Then I got drunk, rolled again 7 months post, and my anxiety insomnia and mood swings vanished, and havn't returned. That roll was again not very good, I was on SSRI's and I depersonalized and have felt that way since.
So, my point being the trend of MDMA users/abusers are prone to anxiety and panick attacks, along with other depressive symptoms.
Me, I have NO anxiety, can't remember the last time I had a panick attack, and I sleep like a log EVERY night, even after doing coke or aphetamines all night.
How could rolling again HELP all these serotonin related problems? Doesn't make sense.
And one thing I have noticed, is that everytime I seem to come close to emotions, or I start to FEEL emotions again, OR some to connect with someone, I freak out and I feel really messed up. I have a GREAT fear of showing emotions or being emotional, it literally scares the crap out of me.
My therapist, neurolgist, and previous psychitrists ive seen in the past all say its C-PTSD and i've even got a proper diagnoses for it from my doctor.
Simply put, 2 pills with no more than 150 mg MDMA combined can't possibly do such damage, and how would useing again imrpove symptoms if there NOT related to trauma?
But this is where I tend to disagree, with my particular case. I shall explain why.
The LAST night before I rolled (the roll that really "changed me") I was perfectly normal, don't recall any mishaps or strange sensations thoughts or actions.
Then during my LAST roll, where I took only two pills, that might have very well not even been MDMA (low quality, cheap pressed pills, 3 for $10), I endured a really tramautic experience, and my roll went from feeling good and comfy, to the WORST panic attack of my life, and I lost control of my mind for a good 4-5 hours.
The next day, and months preceeding this day, I was having flashbacks, reliving that experience day in day out all day, I was even avoiding places, and even fucking objects that reminded me of that night. I had triggers everywhere, I stopped going to the upper floor of my house because thats where I went after I witnessed that experience.
Now, for the next 6 months, insane insomnia, i mean incredible. It would take either 4 sleeping pills or 2 mg of klonopin to put me out for 4+ hours. I was hypervigilant, I couldn't even make eye contact with people, and I was starteled and frustrated easily. Not to mention gut-wrenching panick attacks all day with constant anxiety.
Then I got drunk, rolled again 7 months post, and my anxiety insomnia and mood swings vanished, and havn't returned. That roll was again not very good, I was on SSRI's and I depersonalized and have felt that way since.
So, my point being the trend of MDMA users/abusers are prone to anxiety and panick attacks, along with other depressive symptoms.
Me, I have NO anxiety, can't remember the last time I had a panick attack, and I sleep like a log EVERY night, even after doing coke or aphetamines all night.
How could rolling again HELP all these serotonin related problems? Doesn't make sense.
And one thing I have noticed, is that everytime I seem to come close to emotions, or I start to FEEL emotions again, OR some to connect with someone, I freak out and I feel really messed up. I have a GREAT fear of showing emotions or being emotional, it literally scares the crap out of me.
My therapist, neurolgist, and previous psychitrists ive seen in the past all say its C-PTSD and i've even got a proper diagnoses for it from my doctor.
Simply put, 2 pills with no more than 150 mg MDMA combined can't possibly do such damage, and how would useing again imrpove symptoms if there NOT related to trauma?
Folley
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2011
- Messages
- 12,185
^ Dude, they werent MDMA pills. Thats why...
It does sound like what you experienced was PTSD, you had taken like 15 pills total correct? Thats absolutely nothing. It sounds like that experience SEVERELY tramitized you, thats why you were getting flashbacks when things reminded you of that night, like soldiers who come back from war and freak out when they hear fireworks.
I would say in your case, it was all in your head. But its not like "positive thinking" is just going to turn all that around. Rolling again probably got your brain into the right state, rewired it the "right" way, or at least better than before.
It does sound like what you experienced was PTSD, you had taken like 15 pills total correct? Thats absolutely nothing. It sounds like that experience SEVERELY tramitized you, thats why you were getting flashbacks when things reminded you of that night, like soldiers who come back from war and freak out when they hear fireworks.
I would say in your case, it was all in your head. But its not like "positive thinking" is just going to turn all that around. Rolling again probably got your brain into the right state, rewired it the "right" way, or at least better than before.
That's what I was thinking. I went on pillreports and my province has like the worst pills around. I've never even SEEN MDMA caps or MDMA cystals before, let alone eaten it.
And no, my total pill count is around 80 over the past six years, I've rolled between 30-40 times in 72 months (including that last spree where I rolled 8 times in 4 1/2 months and took like 15 pills [this all started April 2010]). I've never rolled two days in a row, or even two weekends in a row, and rarely redose. I use to usually take half a pill, and no more than like 2 or 3, besides one night I took like 8 or 9 pills, but that was like 4 years ago now.
Half the pills i remembered eating I checked on pillreports and they never even had MDMA in them, alot were just cut.
I found this dealer who sold really cheap, and that night gave me and my buddys 3 pills for $10, so we bought six, and I ate two. I never really rolled (never had a chance) and the girls who ate them with me seemed really fucking speedy, and wanted to dance a fuck load.
Either way, i've never taken pure M before.
But yeah, I lost my shit that night, and never slept for like 2 days after that. And started reliving that night, and reliving the CONSEQUENCES IF i did somethign else, like relived what it would have been like if I never said this or never did this or never walked here, or waited x minutes to go here.
It was like a daily routine for me, get up panick and relive that night all day while I was literally curled in a ball on my bed feeling like I was being pumped with adrenaline through an IV all fucking day. I isolated myself, stopped going out, just basically broke down. And when the new year came around, even seeing 2010, or looking at old pictures of me, or listening to certian songs would "send me back" and freak me out.
Then I rolled, and i depresonalized cause I wasnt in a good setting and was in a strange city with people I just met. Its like my mind floated out of my body, and ive been like that since. But it stopped my anxiety, stopped me from having nightmars and flashbacks and I started sleeping alot. My mind just shut down, as if it just got back from a war or something. I've been numb/exhausted since. Its kind of relieveing to not be going crazy all day or having nightmares or flashbacks, but it sucks being numb. Atleast before I was freaking out but I felt something.. and could feel emotions, and sadness. Now i can't even get myself depressed or send myself into a depressive spin, and I can't for the LIFE of me send myself into a panic attack.
I dunno, im starting to think PTSD and not brain daamge, because theres SOO many people ive read of that roll every two weeks for long periods and are fine, I rolled like 8 times in 4 1/2 months and never took more than two pills, and a few of the rolls we took wernt even MDMA according to pillreports.
So, i dunno.
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augustaB
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2007
- Messages
- 2,611
Well personally I think you took one hell of a combination of drugs that particular night, so why blame the E?
Many years ago I dropped LSD and smoked a lot of dope. (almost 50 years now)
There was a person who was suffering delirium tremens in the same room and some how I picked up on it.
I was in a very bad way for several years after that. And smoking dope would make it all come back.
Only a few a years ago somebody offered me E and I eventually manage to overcome the fears from back then, to the extent that I can now enjoy dope on the come down from e.
But dope alone will still make me paranoid.
What I'm saying here is that drugs have all kinds of effects and I experienced E as a healing drug not as a cause, although I accept that inexperienced users may have panicky feelings when coming up.
Many years ago I dropped LSD and smoked a lot of dope. (almost 50 years now)
There was a person who was suffering delirium tremens in the same room and some how I picked up on it.
I was in a very bad way for several years after that. And smoking dope would make it all come back.
Only a few a years ago somebody offered me E and I eventually manage to overcome the fears from back then, to the extent that I can now enjoy dope on the come down from e.
But dope alone will still make me paranoid.
What I'm saying here is that drugs have all kinds of effects and I experienced E as a healing drug not as a cause, although I accept that inexperienced users may have panicky feelings when coming up.
Well I blamed E for so long because I never had a concept of what trauma does to someone and E was the perfect candidate. Weird how I feel like ive grown 10 years, in teh past 18 months? I look back at myself then and feel like a child.
But it wasnt the DRUG that made me freak out, it was the event that I went through that fucked me up. It just fucked my psychological integrity up, down to its fucking core, it scared my soul. It was something about the trip that just made the event seem SOO catostrophic, and it just fucked me. I never felt so horrified, and ive had 2 near death experiences before that dont even COMPARE to this night.
It's like the drug opened me up, brought down my barriers, and I was vulnerable. Just, I dunno i cant explain it.
I'm glad to hear that you conquered your fear, I can't imagine being around someone like that on LSD. The vibes you get from people on LSD can really make you feel strange, me and my friends were talking about it yesterday. That's what makes it so magical, but also so risky.. Was it like you THOUGHT you understood what he was thinking? When I trip on LSD I cant be around sober, stoned or drunk people, only people who are the "same" as me.
I'm actually considering usuing some MDMA within the next 6 months, and try to see if it can really PUSH me out of this rut. I feel stuck in this merry-go round thought process.
But it wasnt the DRUG that made me freak out, it was the event that I went through that fucked me up. It just fucked my psychological integrity up, down to its fucking core, it scared my soul. It was something about the trip that just made the event seem SOO catostrophic, and it just fucked me. I never felt so horrified, and ive had 2 near death experiences before that dont even COMPARE to this night.
It's like the drug opened me up, brought down my barriers, and I was vulnerable. Just, I dunno i cant explain it.
I'm glad to hear that you conquered your fear, I can't imagine being around someone like that on LSD. The vibes you get from people on LSD can really make you feel strange, me and my friends were talking about it yesterday. That's what makes it so magical, but also so risky.. Was it like you THOUGHT you understood what he was thinking? When I trip on LSD I cant be around sober, stoned or drunk people, only people who are the "same" as me.
I'm actually considering usuing some MDMA within the next 6 months, and try to see if it can really PUSH me out of this rut. I feel stuck in this merry-go round thought process.
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Correction. I never once said I don't think my anxiety and panic attacks came from my x use. I know it has. I should have named this thread differently. I was just curious after 5 years of no rolling is this something ill have for the rest of my life